My attempt at a black powder 12 gauge shell for a modern pump shotgun

[Half-Cocked]

I watched a Dave Canterbury video on YouTube in which he reloaded spent shells with black powder and steel bb's. He fired the shell with a modern break action shotgun on a bird target with decent results at 15 yards.

This is my attempt at recreating the black powder shell. I used an old shell that was previously loaded with a slug.

I popped the primer and seated a new one. Then I cut the excess plastic off the tip of the high brass shell. They are now ready to reload.

Dave used 100 grains of 2f. I decided that was a bit much I scaled my recipe down to 60 grains of 2f. I measured the powder added to the shell and then I cut a patch from an old black t shirt and placed that on top of the charge. I tamped it all down. Using my volumetric powder scale I filled it with crosman bb's to 70 grains. I added that on top of the wad and once in place I toped it with another t shirt wad to hold down the bb's. Finally I cut a piece of card board and put it on top.

Everything is solid I thought of adding some Elmer's glue to the cardboard. I'll see how it performes.

Here are some pics. I also wanted to mention Dave used a single shot break action shotgun. I have a pump. I do not want the shell contents to come loose in the tube. So to simulate a break action single shot I will be loading a single shell at a time from the top directly into the breach. I would not recommend loading the tube or magazine with these things. Unless you want to crimp.

My only concern is that the contents in my shell are shorter than the plastic because I am not using a cup. I don't think it will be an issue perhaps someone with more experience can answer that question.

 

[CatamountRob]

Steel BB’s are really hard and are going to be rough on your barrel. Steel shot is really iron shot and is softer than steel BB’s. Wads made for steel shot are designed to keep the shot from touching your barrel. None of that is a big deal if you don’t value the gun you’re shooting it in much.

 

[toytruck]

First thing I thought of was the black powder fouling in the pump shotgun internals....

 

[Half-Cocked]

Gotcha I will invest in a bag of no 4 lead shot and maybe some shot cups that barrel is pretty thin.

 

[southdakbearfan]

Steel BB’s are really hard and are going to be rough on your barrel. Steel shot is really iron shot and is softer than steel BB’s. Wads made for steel shot are designed to keep the shot from touching your barrel. None of that is a big deal if you don’t value the gun you’re shooting it in much.

I had this thought as well.

If going non-toxic with a BP load I would suggest Bismuth for shot or one of the few other malleable non toxic pellets available. I have no experience personally but have been told BP can foul badly with plastic wads.

 

[Caniborrowsomeammo]

My thoughts are if using steel or similar shot, use a cup to protect the barrel.
A low base 12 G load is usually around a 3 dram (3x27) load with 1 1/8 ounces of shot. But you are using steel and things change then. Steel/tung. changes pressures with nitrocellulose powder. I don't know how BP pressures would be affected.

 

[GREENSWYLDE]

Half Cocked -You said you only used a piece of shirt as wadding in your BP load???
My BP load for my 12's is 23/4drms of No.2 (3F) with 16th card over then 1/2"fibre wad with a16th card over. Then 11/8th ozs of No.7's or 6s for game . I use a Roll Turn over tool to close the case. You may have to shorten the crimp cases a bit to get a tight roll close. Works OK in my old Browning Twelvette 2 shot. Good 1/2 choke pattern to 30yds. Still pretty fatal at 40.. O D..

 

[michiganmuzzy]

Ive got a couple different roll crimpers. One that clamps to a counter and turns by hand(works well enough), and one that chucks into a drill(works great if you have a shellholder clamp)

 

[Half-Cocked]

Ok new plan. I have a little more knowledge and it's clear that my old Shell would not work without causing some scoring to the barrel.

I bought this for 50 bucks. It was an Amazon return sometimes you can get deals on those.


I plan on using used hulls with steel shot cups with pyrodex as a propellant.

I got a deal on the pyrodex and bb's are cheap.

The reason I'm pushing for steel shot is because I feel more comfortable with the steel shot in a small game animal less chance of lead contamination and I can run over the top of the meat with a handheld metal detector and easily feel for the bb's.

Also traditionally steel shot factory shotgun shells cost more so to make the reloading of shotgun shells economical I think it's better to try to recreate a steel shot shell. The price of lead shot is astronomical they wanted $58 for 15 lb. Bismuth is even higher!

At those prices unless you're really concerned about shot patterning and want to really dial in your own custom stuff it's just not worth it. Imo.

The downside of this machine is I doubt that it'll do slugs. Now correct me if I'm wrong but on every slug that I've seen they use a roll crimp with a little plate just in front of the slug. This machine isn't set up for that it seems.

As far as using felt wads and such other than the plastic wads traditionally used the probably would be better especially for a black powder type cartridge. But the goal here is to get a steel shot shell as cheap as possible.

Now crossing over into the black powder I do have some concern. As mentioned above typically in a black powder shotgun you'd have powder laying right on top would be a wad top of that would be your shot and then another wad on top of that all tightly packed down the barrel. With a modern shot cup they typically have some type of cushion spacing underneath the cup. This means that yes the bottom of the cup will be pressed against the powder but the shot will not be directly pressed against powder and everything will not have the same type of compression. Does that make sense?

I'm going to try it as an experiment worse comes to worst I guess I'll be reloading traditional shot shells with my new machine.

Later on I might see what all is needed to reload slugs. If you're going to reload shotgun shells... slugs are where it's at. Slugs make sense as you save money on reloading slugs.

 

[Half-Cocked]

One last thing. I always clean my pistols rifles and BP right after I shoot. It's just part of the ritual. So I don't foresee any problems running black powder through this modern firearm as long as I follow black powder rules.

That means swap in the barrel every other shot. And of course clean with water and soap dry thoroughly then oil.

I'll be using a hatsan slugger pump shot gun. Which by the way is a great gun! I was amazingly surprised by this budget pump shotgun. . Cylinder board choke is made for slugs however I noticed the pattern with number six shot isn't bad at close range at all! Matter of fact it's a nice little pattern! That combined with the 18 inch barrel makes us a great multi-use gun. No I wouldn't necessarily go turkey hunting or try to shoot skeet with it but for deer rabbit and squirrel and home defense I think it would be a good shotgun for many people. What's the sales at Dunham's or your local sports store I've seen them come down to 139 that's just a little more than you'd pay for a single shot.


Back to the black powder in a modern shotgun I need to get in touch with some of these cowboy shooters I'm told that this is standard operandi for them. A lot of interesting variables going on like the pressure curve of black powder versus modern smokeless. I'm akin to a blind drinking hillbilly mole fooling around with this stuff.

 

[michiganmuzzy]

Ok new plan. I have a little more knowledge and it's clear that my old Shell would not work without causing some scoring to the barrel.

I bought this for 50 bucks. It was an Amazon return sometimes you can get deals on those.
View attachment 15467

I plan on using used hulls with steel shot cups with pyrodex as a propellant.

I got a deal on the pyrodex and bb's are cheap.

The reason I'm pushing for steel shot is because I feel more comfortable with the steel shot in a small game animal less chance of lead contamination and I can run over the top of the meat with a handheld metal detector and easily feel for the bb's.

Also traditionally steel shot factory shotgun shells cost more so to make the reloading of shotgun shells economical I think it's better to try to recreate a steel shot shell. The price of lead shot is astronomical they wanted $58 for 15 lb. Bismuth is even higher!

At those prices unless you're really concerned about shot patterning and want to really dial in your own custom stuff it's just not worth it. Imo.

The downside of this machine is I doubt that it'll do slugs. Now correct me if I'm wrong but on every slug that I've seen they use a roll crimp with a little plate just in front of the slug. This machine isn't set up for that it seems.

As far as using felt wads and such other than the plastic wads traditionally used the probably would be better especially for a black powder type cartridge. But the goal here is to get a steel shot shell as cheap as possible.

Now crossing over into the black powder I do have some concern. As mentioned above typically in a black powder shotgun you'd have powder laying right on top would be a wad top of that would be your shot and then another wad on top of that all tightly packed down the barrel. With a modern shot cup they typically have some type of cushion spacing underneath the cup. This means that yes the bottom of the cup will be pressed against the powder but the shot will not be directly pressed against powder and everything will not have the same type of compression. Does that make sense?

I'm going to try it as an experiment worse comes to worst I guess I'll be reloading traditional shot shells with my new machine.

Later on I might see what all is needed to reload slugs. If you're going to reload shotgun shells... slugs are where it's at. Slugs make sense as you save money on reloading slugs.

Ive got the same machine. Ive loaded slugs with it. Not tipped slugs tho. HP or flat nose, lead and copper. An over bullet card is only necessary when roll crimping. The crimp function works ok on that Lee but sometimes i had to add hot glue on it (the crimped shel) to keep it in place on new shells. I never put a slug or shot cup right on top of the powder, always had some kind of cushion.

 

[michiganmuzzy]

Get yourself one of these
https://www.ballisticproducts.com/mobile/Original-Roll-Crimping-Tool-12ga/productinfo/ROLL12/
Or one of these.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01HL8NHU8/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_glt_fabc_SMCVCF7ERP4RD01TDAZ4

 

[Caniborrowsomeammo]

BB's are cheap, Steel shot is cheaper if you can find it locally usually.
I get the bulk of my Shotshell reloading goodies from BPI, well not since the plandemic, but if and when things get back to "normal" I'll probably continue to use them.
Here's a cowboy action load they have listed, though it is for a loaded shell.
https://www.ballisticproducts.com/load14_09_12.htm

 

[southdakbearfan]

air gun bb’s can be double the hardness of steel shot designed for reloading. Cost is pretty close to a wash at $18-$20 for 10 lbs of either.

Personally I would just get a 10lb bag/bottle of steel shot intended for shotshell reloading. Size B shot is the closest to air gun shot in diameter I Believe.

 

[Half-Cocked]

Get yourself one of these
https://www.ballisticproducts.com/mobile/Original-Roll-Crimping-Tool-12ga/productinfo/ROLL12/
Or one of these.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01HL8NHU8/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_glt_fabc_SMCVCF7ERP4RD01TDAZ4

I should have known to ask you given your experience! I did take a look at those two after I purchased the lee press. I would be interested in a copper slug and your procedure for loading up a slug. As long as a six point closed crimp is fine on a slug I assume you put the slug in the same step as inserting the wad? And you would have to bypass the "add the shot step" of the instructions on the lee. I can I kind of see it.

 

[Half-Cocked]

BB's are cheap, Steel shot is cheaper if you can find it locally usually.
I get the bulk of my Shotshell reloading goodies from BPI, well not since the plandemic, but if and when things get back to "normal" I'll probably continue to use them.
Here's a cowboy action load they have listed, though it is for a loaded shell.
https://www.ballisticproducts.com/load14_09_12.htm

That is perfect gives me some starting load points for t7 in shot shells I imagine the pyrodex will be a similar charge.

 

[Half-Cocked]

air gun bb’s can be double the hardness of steel shot designed for reloading. Cost is pretty close to a wash at $18-$20 for 10 lbs of either.

Personally I would just get a 10lb bag/bottle of steel shot intended for shotshell reloading. Size B shot is the closest to air gun shot in diameter I Believe.

Great bit of information. I did not know that there was a difference in the hardness of steel. I assume it's enough of a difference to make a difference?

Unfortunately the shotgun reloading supplies that I saw were very limited. I'd be interested in seeing steel shot of different sizes. Given the rest of the barrel using steel shot I'm wondering if I should slit the cup at all if I buy an unslit cup. I guess I'll have to load and see if there's a pattern or a slug at that point.

I can certainly live with 18 to $20 for 10 lbs. The lead shot was a little pricey 58 dollars or so for 15 lb. No thanks. Hell if steel shot is cheaper that's exactly what I want. And if they make it another sizes it'll give me something other than BB size to play with.

 

[Half-Cocked]

This should not be as complicated as I'm making it I'm not reinventing the wheel. I know that the cowboy action shooting guys use 12 gauge with black powder and obviously triple seven. I want a better understand what they put in the hull. If they're using plastic shot cups or if they're running felt wads and some type of felt spacers.

The only difference between mine and their loads would be that they're probably using lead shot and my goal is to use steel shot.

 

[GREENSWYLDE]

We have proved in the past: if you use Plastic shot cups in shells or as is in muzzle loaders with SLOW, HOT, LONG burning powders like Black you will have Plastic lined barrels. The heat melts plastic which sticks in the cooler tubes.. Whether New steel BIo shot cups would help we don't know as no body seems to get hold of them.. O.D..

 

[michiganmuzzy]

Paper/cardboard or even cloth cups would probably be easy to make then.