NM Scopeless Muzzleloader Rule

[Tracker12]

No scopes will result in lost animals for sure. Hard to comment without knowing what their objective is.

 

[txhunter58]

No scopes will result in lost animals for sure. Hard to comment without knowing what their objective is.

Please explain how you think that is true. I have never used a scope and haven’t lost an animal. Without a scope most people shoot 150 yds or less. With a scope you shoot…..??

No animals are being wounded and lost shot at 250-300 yards with a scope?

Sorry but that logic doesn’t hold up. Suspect the same number of animals will be wounded. Just at 250-400 yards.

What is their objective: less animals killed in muzzleloading season. Again I would be in favor of 1X scopes for people with old eyes like me, but magnified scopes extends the guns range and more animals are killed = less tags available.

 

[Tracker12]

Both shooters whether shooting with a scope or open sights will shoot longer than they are effective at and will loose game. But I doubt anyone will argue the most shooters are more accurate with optics than open sights. Couple that with low light conditions and lack of practice with open sights will result in less accurate shots and more wounded game. I think that logic will hold up.

By the way I am pushing 70 and did my last elk hunt in UT with a 1X when that was all that was legal. Not knowing what UT's objectives are hard to comment on the tags vs kill issue.

 

[txhunter58]

I would agree that most shooters are more accurate with a scope……
At close distances.

But The question is: do open sights at 100-150 yards wound more game than scopes at 300-350 with a muzzleloader, single shot rifle.

If you were talking bolt action, then I would agree because you would have time to shoot another 4-5 times after you wound an animal. But not with a single shot rifle.

So guess we will have to just disagree because no one will ever prove it one way or the other.

The real questions is:

Will less total elk be killed with open sights/1X scopes than those equipped with 10x scopes. My opinion is that less total will be killed, including those wounded in both cases

I am pushing 65, so scopes would be an asset to my aging eyes. That said I will be hunting with my peep sight this September in Colorado. I really wish they would allow 1X scopes.

 

[MTY]

I was strictly a bow hunter for many years. My tendonitis got so bad I had to lay off. A 65 pound recurve can really put the pressure on your tendons.
I have killed deer, bear, and elk at less than ten yards, so a muzzleloader seems like a long distance tool to me. Even though I could use up to a 4X, I have a 1X mounted on the LK-93. One hundred yards seems to be a long way off.
I may be an outlier, but not everyone packing a muzzleloader is going to be trying for 300+ shots, scope or no scope.

 

[45-70]

New Mexico has proposed a change to the definition of muzzleloaders to be without a scope. The comment period is open, and I'd love it if you'd comment. The web addresses are [email protected],[email protected], [email protected]. Please feel free to comment.

Below is what I sent in to NM Game & Fish:

The success rate for muzzleloaders has gone up consistently with the new technologies coming out with better rifles, powders, and ignition systems, and you want to lower that success rate. I am o.k. with that although is seems inconsistent with the increase in elk population.

Your proposed solution is to not allow scopes on muzzleloaders. This is going to make it very hard for older hunters with declining eyesight to hunt with muzzleloaders. I tried open sights on my javelina gun, and I wasn’t accurate much past 50 yards. Peep sights help, but won’t solve the problem, and peep sights aren’t effective in low light situations.

There are many other ways to decrease muzzleloader harvest that don’t punish older hunters. Baby boomers are the biggest population group, and this change will weed us out of hunting earlier than necessary. I am 68, and don't know how much longer I can hunt. I know I can't shoot open sights, so this year may be my last year. I hunt with a muzzleloader because I can draw a tag.

Scope technology hasn’t changed, rifle design, powders, and ignition systems have. High velocity and high B.C. bullets are what allow hunters to kill at long range with muzzleloaders. Options 2-8 below would all lower hunting ranges, and reduce the kill rate. Any of these options are preferable to what you have proposed.

1. Fewer tags. Not my first choice.
2. Outlaw in-line muzzleloaders.
3. Outlaw 209, Rifle, and Pistol primers. Require musket caps or #10 or #11 caps.
4. Outlaw Blackhorn 209 and 777 powder.
5. Require bullets to be 350 gr. or more (this would reduce loss of wounded elk)
6. Require lead only bullets.
7. Require full bore bullets.
8. Outlaw bullets more than 1.25 times bore diameter.
9. Require flat point bullets.

I also recommend that the youth hunts should include anyone who is still a student at a NM college, and should be longer to accomodate not being able to take off from school.

Good HP lead bullet is better than flat, and rule 8 no need for,

 

[mnoland30]

At the same time they are proposing this change, they are saying that the deer herd is increasing. Go figure.

I've shot deer at 300 and 275 yards, but the result was a slow kill. My personal limit now is 200 meters.

 

[ElDiablo]

More reading on this

https://nmwildlife.org/nm-game-depa...e-use-of-scopes-on-muzzleloaders-for-big-game

 

[69hunter]

I am all for keeping the Scopes and decreasing the trajectory range of these high-powered muzzleloaders last year my nephew shot and hit a bull at 180 yards and then a Outfitter, guide shot at the same Bull right over us at 600 yards. These are no longer muzzle loaders they are modified long range rifles.

 

[michiganmuzzy]

I am all for keeping the Scopes and decreasing the trajectory range of these high-powered muzzleloaders last year my nephew shot and hit a bull at 180 yards and then a Outfitter, guide shot at the same Bull right over us at 600 yards. These are no longer muzzle loaders they are modified long range rifles.

How would you suggest accomplishing that? (without hurting feelings or stepping on other peoples rights?

 

[69hunter]

I think the problem is in my opinion only a lot of the hunters liked when muzzleloaders were off the shelf and had scopes but as soon as these muzzleloaders were modified to shoot like a rifle with Rifle and Pistol primers it no longer became Fair to the hunt my opinion is just go back to keeping muzzleloaders simple with a scope. In the unit I have hunted for 25 years it is open country those high-powered muzzleloaders will take out any bull out that you can see. It is no longer a hunt of stalking and getting close enough it's just seeing him and shooting them. In my opinion.

 

[69hunter]

How would you suggest accomplishing that? (without hurting feelings or stepping on other peoples rights?

It's simple it's a muzzleloader keep it a muzzleloader it wasn't intended to shoot three four five six hundred yards

 

[michiganmuzzy]

Tell that to Encore50A and a few others.

 

[HV-Muzzleloaders]

It's simple it's a muzzleloader keep it a muzzleloader it wasn't intended to shoot three four five six hundred yards

During the Civil War landowner Jack Hinson had helped Grant when Union forces had won the local battle. All of that changed at a later time when Hinson found his two son's heads cut off and placed on the gate posts of his plantation. They had been accused of being "bushwhackers" and executed by a Union patrol.

Hinson had a special rifle built for the purpose of taking out his revenge, especially on Union officers.

That rifle belongs to one of Hinson's descendants today.

Some consider Hinson to be the original American "sniper", because some of his kills were made at a considerable distance.

 

[improman]

pre 1890 or replica... exposed hammer..problem solved.

 

[HV-Muzzleloaders]

I read the book. It was excellent.

Article about Hinson's Rifle:
https://www.gunsandammo.com/editorial/the-story-of-civil-war-sniper-jack-hinson-and-his-rifle/247860

 

[45-70]

Surprise for you people. Ever hear of English Rigby or Medford both were 1000 yd. rifles in 1860's

 

[Okie Hog]

In 2013 Fort Sill, OK banned inline rifles the first week of muzzleloader season. Only conventional muzzleloaders are allowed that week, no scopes or sabots allowed. i simply picked up my TC New Englander, loaded it with patched round ball and continued to kill deer.

My eyes are 83 years old. i have somewhat of a problem with open sights. No problem with a rear peep sight.

Most of my shots are at ranges <60 yards, under no circumstances will i take a shot at distances greater than 75 yards with a conventional muzzleloader. i sometimes stalk animals that are outside my range.

IMO: Getting low to the ground and shortening the distance to the animal is the mark of a hunter.

 

[Scott Somers]

Don't forget slug gun competition. Muzzleloading with a scope in competition. Slug and picket guns were pre 1890 and 40 rod shooting was popular. Check out some of the stories about Pope guns and 200 yards. Perhaps you were talking about round ball only. My father owned and shot a Gibbs Medford back in the 1940's. No scope 200 yards was not a problem, but it was not a round ball. In teh 80's I shot 200 yards with a .577 caliber bench gun, no scope. But paper is not an animal. In the 1980's, I was at an American Society of Arms Collectors meeting at the YO Ranch in south Texas. Val Forgett from Navy Arms brough a Whitworth - no scope - for people to shoot. The YO, at close to 100,000 acres at the time, had a range out to 500 yards. I hit steel targets at 125 yards ,250 yards , and 375. Had a "close almost" at 500 but the sun was going down. A crank or three up and it would have been done. The shots were watched but a good handfull of recognized antique gun collectors of significant note. Again not a round ball, no scope but it was no problem. Those guns were made for longer shots. But you gotta watch the wind. Just like 100 yard round ball.

 

[txhunter58]

Tell that to Encore50A and a few others.

They enjoy shooting muzzleloaders at TARGETS at very long range (1000 yards!). It’s a sport itself. Power to them!
But doubt they would be shooting at a deer or elk at 400 yards. If anyone has, post it up with pictures of the animal and your load used. If so, also show the ballistic data showing that the bullet still has enough energy to kill humanely.