No Excuses Bullet Hardness Test

[Idaholewis]

I was sent some No Excuses Bullets by 2 Different Forum members to Test their Hardness, Twild, and SteveH sent the Samples.

My findings with Twilds Bullets, He sent me 5 total, All 5 Bullets were Consistent at .040 on my Dial. I use a Cabin Tree Lead Hardness Tester. At .040 on my Dial that is Just over Pure lead, and under 1-40 Alloy, i would say 6-7 BHN, or there very close abouts. Pure lead is 5 BHN

Here is my Chart, after i test a sample i look at the Dial on my tester, I then match that number with my Chart to find the BHN (Brinell Hardness)

Up next was the SteveH Bullets, he sent me 6 total, 3 of which he had marked #1, and 3 of which he had marked #2, i started with #1, The very first thing i did here was look at all 3 Bullet bases, I IMMEDIATELY spotted a Telltale Sign of a Hard bullet on 1 of the bullet bases, But ONLY 1 of them. This is what i am talking about

Notice the Odd shape in the Center of the Center bullet Base here? It is a “Pulled/Torn” Sprue, in ALL of my findings over the last few years of doing LOTS N LOTS of this stuff, this “Pull/Tear” starts to happen at 9-9.5 BHN, Anything 8.5 and Below will show a “Slide/Smear” Cut Sprue. If you look closely you can see the “Slide/Smear Sprue Cut in the Left Bullet, These Bullet bases are in HORRIBLE shape, as Bad as I’ve ever seen. I sure hope these Don’t come this way From NE Bullets?

I tested the Center Bullet first, it read .071 on my Dial, that is HARD, Almost Wheel Weight Hard! .071 on my Dial would indicate a Brinell Hardness of 10.5 to 11

All other (5) SteveH Bullets measured .40-.45 on my Dial, .045 is where 1-40 Starts. I asked Steve to look through the rest of his Bullets and look for the “Pull/Tear” Sprues, He did so and found more of them that Show it. I believe these were of the Same box of Bullets that Ron Tested A few years back? If so, this Explains the outcome of Ron’s Test.

What bothers me the Worst about this is the Varying BHN Throughout the Same Box of Bullets, These would never Group that Great. Shoot a 1-40, then a Wheel weight hard Bullet, They will Group Differently. Some rifles are a Bit more forgiving, But this will stil Show!

 

[Idaholewis]

Any of you can do a Quick look at your Bullet bases and get an idea of what you have? Exact hardness will have to be determined with a Tester, But just a Quick look can tell you if the Bullet is Soft, or Harder

Again, here is what you are looking for. Center bullet, center of the Bullet Base. If you see this “Pull/Tore” Sprue, the Bullet is Harder than Pure lead!!

 

[Idaholewis]

One thing i would like to ad, Pure lead is given a WIDE variance on both of my Charts, .015 to .035 on one of them, and .020 to .030 on the other, Everything else is much tighter (look at my Chart above) I have had some SUPER SOFT lead 1 time, and only 1 time, it was down around .018 (Forum member Harleysboss had it) The Majority of what i Get is closer to the Upper end, .030 to .035

If you were to do a Ron’s Test on a Bullet that Measured .015-.020 on my Dial, i have NO doubt that it would test Better than say a Bullet that Measures .030 to .035 on my Dial, EVEN though they are Both considered Pure Lead. Especially the low end Test where Many Bullets Fail, The softer Bullet is Gonna Perform Ron’s Test Better PLAIN N SIMPLE! I wish i could of tested Ed’s Lyman Gould that Did so well in Ron’s Test, I would Bet that it was BUTTERY Soft, Probably Down at the Bottom .015-.020 on my Dial.

I recovered MANY Bullets from The SUPER Soft lead i had way back from Forum member Harleysboss, That stuff pretty much turned inside out!

 

[edmehlig]

Lew, I think you still have some of my 465gr conicals left that I sent you. You should get a good reading from them as the Gould bullets were made out of the same batch of lead. If you want I'll be glad to send you more Gould bullets to test the hardness on.

 

[Idaholewis]

Lew, I think you still have some of my 465gr conicals left that I sent you. You should get a good reading from them as the Gould bullets were made out of the same batch of lead. If you want I'll be glad to send you more Gould bullets to test the hardness on.

Good idea Ed! I just tested 1 of your 465s, it is actually at the Top end of Pure lead .031 on my Dial. Has Ron tested 1 of these 465s? That would leave the Hollow Point of the Gould making it perform like it did (Which makes good sense) In all honesty I don’t pay that much attention to the Bullet Tests, I know EXACTLY what to expect from my Bullets, and that’s all i care about A few of the Tests Stand out to me, Your Lyman Gould is 1 of them

Ed’s 465 in Hardness Testing

Here again are examples of Sprues i spoke of above. This is the Base of Ed’s 465 Grain Bullet, Note the “Slide/Smear” Cut Sprue, I just tested it at .031 on my Dial, We Know this Bullet is Pure lead, Top end of Pure.

Now here is my BACO Elliptical Nose .45 Bullet that i poured of Certified 1-20 Alloy, BHN Of 10, Notice how this Sprue is “Tore/pulled” This is a TELLTALE sign of Hardness in a Bullet, The only way to know just how hard is to Test. But at least you can Quickly look at your Bullet Bases and See if you have Softer Bullets 8.5 BHN or Lower, or Harder 9-9.5 and up.

 

[SteveH]

I just discovered a cheap but apparently accurate way to test lead hardness, curious is anyone has tried it.



In the vid, I am referring to the guy's use of lead sketching pencils of varying hardness. These can be purchased at any craft or stationary store for less than $10. Basically you pick up a set of sketching pencils and see if you can scratch the lead with them. Start wit a "6B" pencil, a soft one that matches up with pure lead. If you can't scratch the surface, move up to the next pencil on the hardness scale. When you can scratch the lead with the pencil, match it on the chart for corresponding hardness and you then apparently have a pretty good idea of the lead purity.

 

[Idaholewis]

Steve, I have seen that, I have never tried it though. I FULLY trust my Cabin Tree, they are expensive, But a really Nice Tool I have tested Buffalo Arms “Stamped Certified” 1-40, 1-20, and Their Pure lead, My Cabin Tree Tester is SPOT on with all 3 Certified Lead/Alloys.

The Pencils would be Fun to try, and not out a Bunch of Money to do so

 

[edmehlig]

Lew, yes Ron tested my 451 465gr conical. If you look closely you'll see either the 1st or 2nd jug come back into view. Ron said it looked like the jug flew about 12 feet in the air before it came back into view on the camera. Here's the link to show how the bullet performed and mushroomed.

https://www.huntingnet.com/forum/black-powder/400956-ed-465-grain-boolit.html

 

[Idaholewis]

Lew, yes Ron tested my 451 465gr conical. If you look closely you'll see either the 1st or 2nd jug come back into view. Ron said it looked like the jug flew about 12 feet in the air before it came back into view on the camera. Here's the link to show how the bullet performed and mushroomed.

https://www.huntingnet.com/forum/black-powder/400956-ed-465-grain-boolit.html

Nothing wrong with that!

Ed, I Noticed this Test was done in 2015, These 465s you sent me, are you absolutely sure the lead is all of the EXACT same batch, purchased at the Same time back then? Remember, Even if you buy lead from the exact same outfit, once they Run low and Re order, the next batch they get in might not be exactly the same as what you purchased before (BHN Wise) As i stated above, Pure Lead is given a Wide Variance on my Charts, 015-020 SUPER SOFT i have no doubt would test different than .030-.035, Even Though they are both Pure lead.

I went and looked at your Gould Test, NO DOUBT the Hollow Point is where the STELLAR Mushroom/performance came from, As you also had your Gould Solid tested and it did NOT perform near as well.

Your Hollow Point Gould, This test Showed August 2017, Again are you ABSOLUTELY sure the Lead is all from the Exact same Batch, purchased at the Exact same time?

Your Solid Gould, Exact Same bullet as above, But without the Hollow Point

 

[edmehlig]

Lew, 465gr conical that I sent you is pure lead from RotoMetals. I can't remember back then if the lead I used for Ron's test was from RotoMetals, or did I make it from soft Plumbers lead? I'm not too surprised the solid didn't expand as much as the hollow point, but it did expand pretty well.
Lew here are the pictures Ron sent me on the Gould Hollow Point and Solid.


Here's the solid.



Ron, said my solid weighed between 359-360 and after firing it weighed 354.7gr.

 

[Idaholewis]

Ed, I see what happened, i was looking at the 50 Grain Test with your Solid.

Let’s stay on Track here with the “NO EXCUSES” Bullets. SteveH went through 1 of his Boxes of “NO EXCUSES” Bullets and Found 3 more on the top row that Have the “Pulled/Torn” Sprue (As i layed out above, TELLTALE indication of a HARD Bullet) Is this typical of “NO EXCUSES” Bullets? Does bulletbusiness not realize the Negative effects this has on Accuracy? And of course Bullet performance. If all bullets in the Box were of the same BHN (hardness) A guy could Work with them, But not when they are all Mixed up “Mutt Bullets” (NOT the Bullet Design, the Composition of them!) They will never Group Good, As i stated above, Some Rifles will be more Forgiving than others, But it will stil Show!

If you read SteveH’s post in the 460 Grain NE Thread where Ron L Tested the 460 Grain Bullet Again, Steve says-

“Wow, that's an improvement. I believe I provided the .460 bullets for the 2015 test. I've had a time getting consistent results. Still have most of a box left, will need to use them up at the range and see if my accuracy improves with a new box.”

I don’t know either Party here, i have never spoke with “NO EXCUSES” Bullets, and only a few PMs with SteveH and Twild. I have always liked the looks of the “No Excuses” Bullets (I have 3 Molds/Calibers that are VERY similar in design) Going off looks alone, I have recommended “No Excuses” Bullets to Folks on here, and elsewhere that were looking for a Good Muzzleloader Bullet. But After my testing above, I can’t do that anymore

 

[edmehlig]

Unless I missed it I’m curious to know when SteveH bought those NoExcuse bullets. Hopefully NoExcuse changed the way they make them today? Wonder if anyone bought any recently and could post some pictures of the bases of the bullets.

I will say this. If it wasn’t for NoExcuse bullets I would have sold my Whites a long time ago. They shot so much better for me then the ones I bought from White. Then I started casting my own and as they say the rest is History.

 

[Idaholewis]

It has been my experience, with several of my rifles that they will Shoot Soft or a Harder Bullet (up to Wheel Weight) Equally Well, BUT they will NOT Group together! Some Barrels Prefer/Require a Harder Bullet in order to Shoot well (Stainless Green Mountain LRH!!) What i have found is the Harder Bullets will Group to the Right of Softer Lead (Right Hand Twist Rifling) The last test i did with this was using my Lyman Great Plains Hunter 54 Cal 1:32 Twist and 650 Grain Paper Patch Bullets, first up was the pure soft lead, I made a sight adjustments to Zero these at 100 Yards, After I obtained Zero i Shot a Group, They Did good, 1-1/2, 2” Group. Up Next was the HARD Lead (Wheel Weights) The first Shot was 10” to the Right, Barely on my Target Frame, the other 2 Shots were Right with the 1st one, These HARD bullets Grouped just as good as the Soft, But a VERY DIFFERENT POI (Point of impact) Than the Soft Bullets

My Concern with these Particular NO EXCUSES Bullets of SteveH’s is the “Mixed Bag” of Lead Hardness in the Same Box, From 6-7 BHN, and Some as much as 10.5 to 11 BHN, I would Bet this is why SteveH could NOT get these to Group well.

SteveH, Here is a test you can do, Seperate those bullets by the “Tore/Pulled” Sprues, And the ones that don’t have it, Shoot a Group of Each. I bet they will Group MUCH better for You that Way. Another thing i noted with your Bullets is the SEVERELY Damaged Bullet Bases, Did they Come to you that way from NO EXCUSES? The Bullet Base is what Steers the Bullet, Badly deformed Bullet Bases is NO GOOD for Accuracy.

 

[bulletbusiness]

You guys are brutal......just kidding. I'm always amazed at the things I learn following this forum. The tear in the bases? Never paid much attention to it. I do have a couple different hardness testers that I rely on but this seems to be a pretty good quick test. I had always thought that the tear or smear could result from the solidity of the bullet when the sprue is cut. This alternate opinion does make sense. Gonna start watching more. This conversation did drive me to go inspect several boxes of bullets that I had open on the workbench that I have been drawing from to provide sample s to those folks interested in that. They appear to have been cast in the past few months as little oxidation has occurred. I was happen to see that there were no tears in the bases. From looking at the couple that did have tears in previous posts (that were oxidized) I hope they were part of that last bad batch of lead that got out of the shop before we caught it. I do have breaks between batches that could plausible contain bullets from one batch or another but would think they would be only a couple boxes a year like that. Maybe someone pours the remains of one box into another box as they are used? Can't say. Anyway, I have attached the quick video of what I saw this morning during my impromptu inspection after reading this latest post. Sorry about not knowing how to attach a video but I was able to upload it to youtube. It can be found at no excuses bullets or

 

[bulletbusiness]

Heck-maybe I do know how to attach it...…….

 

[Idaholewis]

Bulletbusiness, Everything in the Video you just posted looks good, No “Pulled/Torn” Sprues, And Good Looking Bases.

Any idea how many Boxes of The SteveH type Bullets got out?

 

[bulletbusiness]

If I had to guess.....a few cases (30ish). It's been a couple years ago since we got that bad shipment of lead. If anyone thinks they may have gotten some-let me know via PM and I'll make it right with them.

 

[SteveH]

Ok, to be clear. . .

I can't give the exact date I purchased my bullets from NE, but I am pretty sure it was maybe a month before I sent some to Ron to do his first test in 2015. I brought two boxes of NE 460gr/.503. My intention was to see if I could get them to shoot well out of my two MLs, a Knight Disc Extreme .50 with a Lehigh breech plug (his last run of them before he committed to Knight) and a TC Omega X7. I was using BH209 and maybe some Sagebrush veggie wads.

My first range session was ok, enough so I was optimistic that I would get it dialed in, at least on the Extreme. Subsequent sessions were inconsistent such that I only went through most of one box.

Fast forward to now and Ron's second test. After I made a comment on on the improved results I was asked for and provided some bullets to do a hardness test. So here we are.

I just pulled out the remaining bullets I have to look for "torn sprues." It does not seem an exact science but out of the 47, 15 clearly have little star indents. The other 32 are more like smears.

Hope the pics are clear enough.


That's it.

 

[dbowling]

All the No Excuses Ive shot from my Whites or Knights in the last 2-3 yrs have shot excellent, have bought .54,50 and .45 No Excuse and have had no accuracy issues with any.

 

[dbowling]

you might try shooting the 15 into a group at say 50 yds then shoot 15 of the others at same target and distance and see how they group together..that will probably tell you if there is much difference as long as you use same loading, powder, clean barrel etc.