Quantcast

NULA notes.

Help Support Modern Muzzleloader:

Keese_21

Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2020
Messages
8
Let me start with a shameless plug for the NULA. Wouldn't trade it for anything. It would be the last rifle to go if I had to sell them off.

I am looking for a little advice although I think i am well on the way to having it sorted or if nothing else sharing a little warning to do due diligence and check your gun as always your mileage may very.
I got mine a few years ago, all over the web it says 41-42 grains of N110 max.
I started at 39 grains and the 225 gr XTP and an MMP black. All was well, accuracy great. I tried some 250 gr Barnes coppers and they were CRAZY tight. Set them aside and kept with the XTP.
Several deer and a few years later I went up a size on my scope and when I went to sight in I was all over the place.
So I have got back into "fixing" this. I have changed to 230 gr bulk handgun bullet. Consistant .451 diameter. I have tried MMP black, MMP HPH 24 sabots
All the sabots have the pedals blow off. As I am told this is a sign of over pressure I have backed down to 37grs. (also tried 36.7 grs) Accuracy is OK 3 shots 1 inch @ 50 yards.
but pedals are still blown off the sabots.
I ran them over a chrony yesterday. 230gr bullet
37 grs with HPH 24 sabot @ 1126 fps
37 grs with BBSB sub base and an HPH24 @2782 fps.
I did not expect that speed and this makes me think I am still quite heavy on my charge? Thoughts?
 
Last edited:

GM54-120

Administrator
Staff member
ADMIN
Global Moderator
Joined
Dec 24, 2009
Messages
11,332
Petals blow off all the time on some sabots. Its not related to over pressure. You did NOT get that kinda speed increase with a sub base. You got a false reading somehow. Virtually ever time ive seen a side by side with/without...the load with a sub base was slower. 39gr of N110 and a 225gr Barnes XPB using a Harvester short black sabot clocks about 2200fps in mine. MMP Short black is a little slower but not much.

HPH-24 sabot is way too long for the short little 230gr 45ACP bullets. Its about right for the 250gr Barnes bullet. Your jag is probably snagging the petals and lifting the sabot off the powder a little.
 

Keese_21

Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2020
Messages
8
Thanks for the reply. Certainly a little more investigation is, and will be, in order. I can say definitively I am not pulling the bullet up off the load. I, of course, can't confirm the chronoy wasn't wrong, Both numbers seemed extremely off to me, the first low and the second high, but I CAN say I confirm the chrony everytime I set it up with a Standard velocity 22 LR at 1080 fps before I fire the other items that I am testing over it.
 

GM54-120

Administrator
Staff member
ADMIN
Global Moderator
Joined
Dec 24, 2009
Messages
11,332
Smell the N110 powder and see if it smells "off". I seem to remember a couple posts about N110 degrading for a couple people. There is no way i can imagine though you got almost 2800fps with N110 in a NULA. Around 2350-2400fps is the most with 42-43gr.

You need to try the Harvester EZ-Load smooth black sabot labeled (for upto 300gr bullets). Its shorter then the HPH-12 or 24. The other one is the MMP Short Black (Savage Recommend). Either of those will be better with short bullets. The Harvester is smaller so it would be the better choice with a true .452 bullet. Smaller bullets like Barnes might be better with a HPH-12 or the MMP Short Black. Mine prefers the Harvesters for pretty much all of them.

Which 209 primer are you using? Mine uses CCI209 or CCI209M but Melvin did recommend Fed209As at one time too. DONT USE ML 209 PRIMERS....use regular 209 shotshell reloading primers.
 

Idaholewis

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2017
Messages
5,577
Older style Chronographs with 2 or 3 Eyes can be really finicky, They are VERY light sensitive. And if not Setup properly under Good Conditions a Chronograph can Give all kinds of False Readings.

When Shooting over a Chronograph on a nice Sunshiny day, i want the Sun at my Back, I hold a Ramrod/Rangerod directly over the Eyes of the Chronograph, and Slowly Turn in a Circle, When there is a Shadow from the Ramrod/Rangerod Cast Directly over the Eyes, this is OPTIMUM!! (of course you can’t always do this, depending on where you are Shooting) if it is a Really Bright, Sunshiny day I install the Sky Screens, if it’s not, i leave them off. If it is a Gloomy, Low light day i NEVER EVER use the Sky Screens.

By following the above, i get consistent Chronograph Readings.
 

Keese_21

Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2020
Messages
8
I have many MMP options, The short black, HPH24 and the 3 pedal EZ. The short black is super tight to load, but was what I used previously with no issues other than insanely tight to load. Never chronoed.
My end goal is the MMP orange sabot and the 325 FTX, but I am trying to get a starting point with the new scope before I burn the "expensive" bullets... maybe not necessary, but what I was doing.
I understand that equipment can be finicky, but I do comfirm my chronograph set up with a .22LR shot everytime I set it up and have never before had reason to believe it wasn't working as true and accurate as possible.
If I can get home with a little daylight I would get back on this ASAP. Regarding N110 going bad I sure hope not- I bought a lifetime supply and thought I was set.
 

GM54-120

Administrator
Staff member
ADMIN
Global Moderator
Joined
Dec 24, 2009
Messages
11,332
Some bullets are nearly .450 instead of .451-452. Bullets like that are worth trying in the MMP Short Black. Ive loaded and shot .4505 bullets in that sabot no problem as far as loading them.

I have never gotten the 50x458s to shoot well in my NULA. You DONT want to use N110 with 300gr bullets. Its very hard on sabots so its better suited for lower speed loads if you use it with a 300gr. You want SR4759 if you want to shoot anything over a 275gr but its no longer made. If you want to try a 458 get a cheap one like the Hornady, Sierra or Speer HP. Shoot them slower like around 2000fps or a bit less. Loaded in the 3P-EZ its about the same loaded OD as the MMP orange sabot. Another option is resize them to .454 with a cheap Lee sizing die and use a Harvester Black Crushrib sabot.

4227 is another powder that should work in a NULA if your sabot is tight and you use a 300gr bullet. Its a fussy powder in the old MLII but i know of a couple guys that use it no problem in the NULA.
 

Keese_21

Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2020
Messages
8
Well, I have decided to leave well enough alone. I shot a bunch this weekend, every shot over the chrono and I am going to stick with what's working rather than jones for a "fancy bullet"
FWIW I did confirm a 230gr bullet and 36.5 grains of N110 was getting 1124 Fps with a HPH24 sabot and 2600 with a HPH24 and BBSB. I have no reason to doubt those numbers, I shot .22LR, 6x45mm, 6.5x284, and 358 Win, all over the chrono as well with normal results. My thought is that either there is massive blow by with only the HPH24 or PERHAPS the HPH24 solo was releasing the bullet very near the muzzle and I was getting a reading on the sabot only or bullet and then sabot in a combination that appeared slow.
Bottom line for now, the 230 gr pistol bullet is shooting tiny little groups @2300 fps. The Barnes Mx ( or whatever???) seemed to tumble way off course and the 325 FTX was advised not to use with N110 and that's what I have.
So I am ready to go with the same cheap pistol bullet that I have been hammering whitetails with for 2 decades... oh well. ;)
 

GM54-120

Administrator
Staff member
ADMIN
Global Moderator
Joined
Dec 24, 2009
Messages
11,332
Your chrono is seeing the sub base and its messing up your reading. In mine 39gr and a 225gr XPB clocks well over 2100fps. 41gr is clocking over 2300fps and my barrel is 2" longer than yours. This has been verified on 2 chronographs. Mine and the original owner. There is no way you got 2600fps with 36.5gr of N110.

What 209 primer are you using?

No one said you need to spend a fortune on bullets. This one here is under $13/50 and should be stellar with modest loads. Its going to hold together way better than a 230gr 45ACP bullet.
 
Last edited:

Keese_21

Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2020
Messages
8
GM54, Thanks for the insight and the recommendation.
I am absolutely trying to learn. I have a good deal of experience but not enough to know the answers.
Why are you so convinced the chrono is wrong? I shot a ton of stuff over it in this weekend. All from the same set up.
I load most things light ( and ultimately want to go lower on the NULA) I have 2 scales and they confirm charges.
I got consistent readings at
2300 with my 358 win
2900 with the 6.5-284
1080 with Eley target 22
I got the 2578-2601 3 times with 36.5 grs ( MMP BLACK AND NO SUB BASE)and am getting 2300 +/- 8 with 36.1gr
FWIW I did fire two 325 gr ftx with 36.5 grains of N110 and they ran 2425 and 2423 respectively. (ORANGE AND NO BASE)
From a scientific standpoint all I am seeing is repeatable measurements.
 
Last edited:

jims

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 18, 2005
Messages
1,610
I think the sub base speed answer makes sense. The other speeds are with centerfire bullets with no sabots or sub bases I assume. I do not see how you can get the speeds shown by the type and amount of powder you are shooting.
 

GM54-120

Administrator
Staff member
ADMIN
Global Moderator
Joined
Dec 24, 2009
Messages
11,332
Im still not seeing

What 209 primer are you using?
 

GM54-120

Administrator
Staff member
ADMIN
Global Moderator
Joined
Dec 24, 2009
Messages
11,332
And ive used N110 almost exclusively in mine. Ive seen the speeds everyone else gets and they jive close to mine. Your speeds are much faster so something is up. A Harvester Short black sabot is the most commonly used sabot with some bullets. You get a few more fps vs a MMP. Its about the same loaded OD as the HPH-24 so something is going on.

I too have shot the 325gr FTX with 41gr of N110. Speed was in the 2150-2200fps range. That was with a MMP Orange sabot. Im baffled as to how you are getting 200+fps more and 5gr less powder.
 
Last edited:

Keese_21

Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2020
Messages
8
I have been using a relatively vintage pack of Remington 209 ( for all the above shooting). I sometimes use a similar vintage CCI 209. Win 209 will not fit in my breech plug.( I think both packs of primers are pushing 20 years old. )
I am not trying to be stubborn or a cowboy and the truth is I will probably back it down under 2000 FPS if I get time to play more. But I have a hard time ignoring the results. I firmly believe “trust, but verify” and I think I have done due diligence in my verification so far.
 

GM54-120

Administrator
Staff member
ADMIN
Global Moderator
Joined
Dec 24, 2009
Messages
11,332
Never tried the Rem 209s in mine....at least not that i can remember but either CCI209 or CCI209M work well. No real need for the mag CCI209M unless using a slower powder like N120. Some of the guys posted they used the Fed209A and that is was Melvin told them to use. The plug and bolt face are machined to use certain primers. Others may not fit at all.

The main thing is you DONT WANT TO USE MUZZLELOADER PRIMERS. Use standard shotshell primers.

Now, you said you used that 230gr for 2 decades. I can only assume you used it in other rifles. Its a 45ACP bullet and what works at 1900fps is probably going to grenade at 2200+fps. That is the beauty of the 225gr XPB or Lehigh 230gr CF. Slow or fast they are consititent. They wont grenade. They wont shed too much weight. The entrance wound wont look like it was hit with a varmint bullet.

There are many cheap bullets that should do just fine around 2000-2100fps or slightly faster. My plinking bullet is the 225gr FTX made for lever action 45 colt rifles. Its not super cheap and not really a good choice to shoot too fast either if used for hunting. The 200gr FTX is better for that because its made for 460S&W at well over 2000fps. Never really got that one to shoot as well though.
 

Keese_21

Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2020
Messages
8
I have 2 NULAS, and had a few Savage 10ML-IIs. From Day one I did 39 grs of N110, MMP black and an XTP. Ignorance is bliss. No chrono, no issues, great accuracy in all guns. Normal and devastating performance on game. Both of these bucks, went down on their front knees at the shot and then tipped over. The catalyst here was a change in scope on the NULA> at the same time I changed from XTP to cheap bulk bullet and accuracy went out the window. Going back to the XTP did not solve the issue. I have been chasing it since. Getting down to 36 grs. has me back to great accuracy at the above speeds. I do intend to turn it down further, but have no issue with my previous 39 gr results in the same gun with the same jug of powder.
IMG_9905.JPG
DSC_0475.JPG
 

GM54-120

Administrator
Staff member
ADMIN
Global Moderator
Joined
Dec 24, 2009
Messages
11,332
I just recently added a new scope to mine. Always wanted something nicer for it.



Here it is next to a standard NULA when the original owner had it. It was special order with a slightly heavier contour 26" barrel.


7.64lbs ready to go.
 
  • Like
Reactions: HC

Latest posts

Top