Optima pistol

[MrTom]

Short range you'd be ok I'm sure but I'd keep it short. I hunt a long rifle with a 200 grain XTP and a 195 grain Barnes Xpander and they do well to 100 yards but I won't shoot at a deer beyond that distance as I question the energy retention. The 225 is as light as I will go with the pistol for the energy issue and I will not pull the trigger on any animal over 50 yards. The 200 grain pill might be getting a bit short in length for the pistol but I have no way of knowing for sure as I don't shoot a bullet that light in mine....either the 240 XTP or the Barnes XPB in 225 grain and the recoil is manageable in both bullets with 63 weighed grain of BH209. Both of these bullets print at an inch or less at 50 yards.

 

[GM54-120]

Im pretty certain if you want a cheap option the 40cal 200gr XTP or 200gr HAP would do just fine at V2 pistol speeds. Hornady also has a 230gr HAP in 451. HAP bullets are Action Pistol bullets with soft lead cores and no slits for expansion. They might expand slower without the XTP type slits in the ogive.

 

[deerlessbob]

Thanks for the replies. I intended from the git go to make the pistol a 50 yard gun. We’ve got some small food plots at our club where it should work just fine. I‘ve got a few 250 grain Barnes TEZ’s I’ll play around with too. I eventually will experiment with other bullets for distance. I’m thinking of starting out with 70 grains of BH209.
i just had a call from muzzle-loaders.com confirming they will be getting a shipment of the pistols in the next few weeks. Seem like good folks to work with.

 

[deerlessbob]

Doggone, MrTom, now you’ve got me thinking about the 240 XTP. The BC is substantially better and you say the recoil isn’t that bad. All this thinking is wearing me out!

 

[MrTom]

I started my shooting with the 250 XTP Bob and its not all that bad at 70 measured grains of 209 powder, but I wanted the group to close up some and had to jack up the powder charge to get it and that of course got the recoil up. I tried 300 grain XTP for a few shots but dropped that idea quickly. My next stop was some 44 cal bullets in the XTP , Deep Curl and A-Frame schools and they all shot beautifully with the 63 weighed grain load of 209 powder and all shot at 1" or slightly less at the 50 yards as long as I did my part. The 225 grain XPB Barnes with the 63 weighed grains of powder is so mild in the recoil dept that I settled on that for my hunting load and on paper got 50 yard groups that were right around the 3/4" to 1 ". The beauty of these 4 bullets at that charge is that I have to change nothing. Just shoot any one of them where the gun is sighted.

I am confident enough with the gun with any of the four bullets that I would take a pop at a rabbit at those 50 yards.

I will note though that I shoot this gun a lot. I take it to the range every time I take another gun and shoot at least 10 rounds thru it, 5 at50 yards and 5 at 25 yards. I do this religiously as a handgun is much harder to stay in tune with than a rifle. I take this pistol to the cabin every time we go there and shoot it a bunch in the yard just to keep sharp with it.

 

[deerlessbob]

Thanks very much.

 

[deermanok]

I shoot a 200 grain bullet out of my pistol. Haven't taken a deer with it yet but considering that a .490 round ball only weighs about 170 or so grains and is a proven deer killer, why not? Less recoil.

 

[Matthew323]

Mr. Tom,
I will be swapping my Renegade with the 1:28" twist LRH barrel for a lightly-used Optima V2 pistol sometime in the next couple of weeks.

Would you be kind enough to explain in detail your cleaning procedure for the pistol? This will be my first inline, and I have got NO CLUE what I am getting into. I do not want to screw anything up, or damage the pistol.

Blackhorn209, or Swiss ffg black powder are what I will shoot. I am looking to purchase the Blackhorn209/Lehigh Defense QRBP for the CVA Optima, as well as a package of 4 vent liners.

Time will tell what bullets/sabots I choose to shoot.

I will probably use the Winchester Blue primers that you reccommend.

Thanks,
Bruce

 

[MrTom]

Cleaning is pretty simple with the 209...the only powder this gun sees. Open the gun, pull the fore end and pull the plug...it screws out by hand. My plug has been converted to use vent liners so I also pull the liner. The plug and liner go into a small bowl of Hoppes solvent while I run a brush dipped in solvent thru the barrel a couple times and follow it up with dry patches until they come out clean.. Since my gun shoots very clean, I need to do nothing else inside the action/handle or trigger assembly or firing pin bushing other than giving the areas a wipe with a soft cloth sprayed with a bit of WD-40. The gun in pieces goes into a hard case with heavy foam cut out to holds each piece separately and without touching. The barrel/scope is one piece and never separated. Then I clean the liner, and plug thoroughly and dry them with forced air. When I'm sure the flame channel and liner have clear passages I re-assemble the plug, liner, give the unit a wipe with the WD-40 cloth and put the plug in a soft cloth bag that goes into the hard case and it gets locked and put away.

My V2 Accura is just as easy to clean/maintain except the forearm isn't removed and the barrel stays attached. It too had the converted plug and shoots very clean.

I have a CVA Kodiac .45 Cal that was a bit of a mess when I got it even though it appeared to be kept up. After taking it apart and going thru an extensive cleaning I converted a couple of new plugs to take the vent liners and spent some time shimming them to shoot clean and not this gun is as easy to clean and maintain as the other two CVAs. Do your work on the plugs one way or another to make them shoot clean, and you'll be a happy hunter for years with that Optima pistol. Since I have gotten all of my plugs shooting clean now using the blue box Winchester shotshell reloading primers I take time to measure each. Those that fall inside of my needed length go back in the box, the others go to a buddy whole reloads for trap. We buy a thousand primers at a pop, splitting the cost, then we sit down one night and each using a caliper measure primers. Works great for us.

I store all of my muzzies with their plugs out and in a cloth bag that hangs fro the trigger guard. The barrels are put to be dry and without any oil. Once every month I run a dry patch thru each barrel. I wipe down the surfaces I've handled with that soft cloth I mentioned with just a touch of WD on it. I've been doing this with my guns for 60 years and have never encountered any issues whatever even when I used real black and pyro and t7. But now the Blackhorn I really have nothing to worry about. In my humble opinion it pays to make the gun shoot clean as well as accurate, but shooting clean makes keeping clean a snap.

 

[Matthew323]

Cleaning is pretty simple with the 209...the only powder this gun sees. Open the gun, pull the fore end and pull the plug...it screws out by hand. My plug has been converted to use vent liners so I also pull the liner. The plug and liner go into a small bowl of Hoppes solvent while I run a brush dipped in solvent thru the barrel a couple times and follow it up with dry patches until they come out clean.. Since my gun shoots very clean, I need to do nothing else inside the action/handle or trigger assembly or firing pin bushing other than giving the areas a wipe with a soft cloth sprayed with a bit of WD-40. The gun in pieces goes into a hard case with heavy foam cut out to holds each piece separately and without touching. The barrel/scope is one piece and never separated. Then I clean the liner, and plug thoroughly and dry them with forced air. When I'm sure the flame channel and liner have clear passages I re-assemble the plug, liner, give the unit a wipe with the WD-40 cloth and put the plug in a soft cloth bag that goes into the hard case and it gets locked and put away.

My V2 Accura is just as easy to clean/maintain except the forearm isn't removed and the barrel stays attached. It too had the converted plug and shoots very clean.

I have a CVA Kodiac .45 Cal that was a bit of a mess when I got it even though it appeared to be kept up. After taking it apart and going thru an extensive cleaning I converted a couple of new plugs to take the vent liners and spent some time shimming them to shoot clean and not this gun is as easy to clean and maintain as the other two CVAs. Do your work on the plugs one way or another to make them shoot clean, and you'll be a happy hunter for years with that Optima pistol. Since I have gotten all of my plugs shooting clean now using the blue box Winchester shotshell reloading primers I take time to measure each. Those that fall inside of my needed length go back in the box, the others go to a buddy whole reloads for trap. We buy a thousand primers at a pop, splitting the cost, then we sit down one night and each using a caliper measure primers. Works great for us.

I store all of my muzzies with their plugs out and in a cloth bag that hangs fro the trigger guard. The barrels are put to be dry and without any oil. Once every month I run a dry patch thru each barrel. I wipe down the surfaces I've handled with that soft cloth I mentioned with just a touch of WD on it. I've been doing this with my guns for 60 years and have never encountered any issues whatever even when I used real black and pyro and t7. But now the Blackhorn I really have nothing to worry about. In my humble opinion it pays to make the gun shoot clean as well as accurate, but shooting clean makes keeping clean a snap.

So, if I read this correctly, you break the pistol down into 5 parts:
1. The action/trigger/grip assembly
2. The barrel/scope base/scope & rings
3. Forearm and screw
4. Breech plug
5. Vent liner

Is this correct?

I have read a lot of controversial posts regarding how to get a breech plug to shoot clean. Lapping, and so forth.

I was going to purchase the Lehigh Defense breech plug with the removable vent liners.

Any recommendations as to how to go about setting up a breech plug to shoot clean?

ANY ADVICE will be greatly welcomed!!

Bruce

 

[MrTom]

You're correct on the cleaning.

On lapping....if you're not a gunsmith, I suggest you vacate the idea. Lapping works on two surfaces, the plug's and the barrel. CVA plugs for that pistol are designed to be snugged in with the tool that comes with them and that's as far as the consumer goes. Beyond that one can shim the firing pin bushing to achieve a good seal at the primer or one can use the small steel shims that fit in the primer pocket or the small rubber o-rings that fit in the pocket IF any of these is needed. All of my CVA's have shot clean once I started using the longest primers but even without miking primers my guns shot relatively clean. If I used a new plug or one made for the gun and it shot dirty I'd send it back in a blink and say the plug isn't dimensionally correct and get a different one.

 

[Matthew323]

You're correct on the cleaning.

On lapping....if you're not a gunsmith, I suggest you vacate the idea. Lapping works on two surfaces, the plug's and the barrel. CVA plugs for that pistol are designed to be snugged in with the tool that comes with them and that's as far as the consumer goes. Beyond that one can shim the firing pin bushing to achieve a good seal at the primer or one can use the small steel shims that fit in the primer pocket or the small rubber o-rings that fit in the pocket IF any of these is needed. All of my CVA's have shot clean once I started using the longest primers but even without miking primers my guns shot relatively clean. If I used a new plug or one made for the gun and it shot dirty I'd send it back in a blink and say the plug isn't dimensionally correct and get a different one.

Thanks Mr. Tom

 

[fourbore]

My hunting buddy swears by the special 209 breech plug sold by CVA. Shoots nothing but 209, for clean burn and easy clean. But, it is a little harder to ignite. His cleaning is remove breech plug and clean. No added take down -AFAIK.

 

[MrTom]

I take my pistol down to store, only reason I go that far when cleaning. My rifles don't get broke down for cleaning.

 

[Matthew323]

Mr. Tom,
When you measure the length of the 209 primers, what length are you trying to achieve?

I have been reading other threads on breech plugs, so can I surmise that you want a primer that will fill the hole in the breech plug to the extent that when the action is closed, it will close snugly?

Thanks

 

[MrTom]

I want the longest primers so they get a slight "crush" when the action is closed. This seals the whole thing up. Shorter primer allow gases to sip past and the primers can come out dirty or you'll get discharge on the scope where the action/barrel meets. I forget just what the length is as we did a thousand primers last winter and roughly half were long enough to make the cut and my buddy has the micrometer calipers. Right now all of my plugs seal well with the Winchester primers I have on hand, but I also have some cci's that I shoot at the club when I'm just poking paper and they will leak a bit so when I shoot those I use the small rubber o-ring to stop the leakage, then discard it at cleaning time. I only hunt and prepare to hunt with the Winchesters though. In any of my smokers and they are all BH209 dedicated.

Primers are cheap so I'd recommend shooting a few brands and settle on the one that gives you the best consistency and use the rubber o-rings to obtain the seal if needed. Same goes for powders, charge sizes, sabots and bullets. Some powder, bullet/sabot and primer combos just shoot cleaner than others. I spend a lot of time on the 100 yard range all year long just to shoot so I see the little differences and adjust to them. But when the hunting season rolls around I use nothing but what I know works in cold weather, damp weather and I will always have the Winchester primers in the plug because I know they work when I need them to as long as I do my part in maintenance and good cleaning habits....and there have been a couple incidences where I put cleaning off and it cost me horns.

I make custom fishing tackle and blend my own acrylic paint colors for the airbrush and the plastic colors I use in making soft plastic baits so I have developed good note taking habits and those have followed me to the shooting bench. Slow down, take good notes and pay attention to little details as they pop up and record them and when you're done shooting create a cleaning sequence and stick with it. Everything will come together for you then .

 

[Matthew323]

I want the longest primers so they get a slight "crush" when the action is closed. This seals the whole thing up. Shorter primer allow gases to sip past and the primers can come out dirty or you'll get discharge on the scope where the action/barrel meets. I forget just what the length is as we did a thousand primers last winter and roughly half were long enough to make the cut and my buddy has the micrometer calipers. Right now all of my plugs seal well with the Winchester primers I have on hand, but I also have some cci's that I shoot at the club when I'm just poking paper and they will leak a bit so when I shoot those I use the small rubber o-ring to stop the leakage, then discard it at cleaning time. I only hunt and prepare to hunt with the Winchesters though. In any of my smokers and they are all BH209 dedicated.

Primers are cheap so I'd recommend shooting a few brands and settle on the one that gives you the best consistency and use the rubber o-rings to obtain the seal if needed. Same goes for powders, charge sizes, sabots and bullets. Some powder, bullet/sabot and primer combos just shoot cleaner than others. I spend a lot of time on the 100 yard range all year long just to shoot so I see the little differences and adjust to them. But when the hunting season rolls around I use nothing but what I know works in cold weather, damp weather and I will always have the Winchester primers in the plug because I know they work when I need them to as long as I do my part in maintenance and good cleaning habits....and there have been a couple incidences where I put cleaning off and it cost me horns.

I make custom fishing tackle and blend my own acrylic paint colors for the airbrush and the plastic colors I use in making soft plastic baits so I have developed good note taking habits and those have followed me to the shooting bench. Slow down, take good notes and pay attention to little details as they pop up and record them and when you're done shooting create a cleaning sequence and stick with it. Everything will come together for you then .

Thanks for the info.

It's not all that different from shooting a flintlock. Find out what works, establish a routine, and don't deviate from it.

I just need to figure out the routine for an inline pistol. That's where all these questions come from. Inlines are more complicated firearms than sidelock flintlocks are.

The higher pressures of Blackhorn209 powder add to the complexity.

But, I'll get it figured out soon enough thanks to the helpful people on this forum.

Thanks to all that have answered my questions thus far. I'm sure I've got more yet to be asked.

 

[Matthew323]

So, my trade with Mtn Monkey for his Optima V2 pistol is just about completed.

When he receives my rifle next week, he will then send the pistol off to DOC White for evaluation to hopefully be transformed into a laminated wood, Javelina-stocked, Optima V2.

To include, if necessary, removal of the factory stud for the forearm; and replaced with a longer, wider, deeper stud (attached with low-temp silver solder) that is capable of resisting the torque that the stubby hand grip will apply to the barrel when utilized with the pistol grip in a push-pull motion.

I also intend to have flush-mounted, GrovTec, GTHM289, H-D, Push Button, Sling Swivel Bases installed.

As well as a brass, Spartan Precision Equipment, Classic Gunsmith Adapter, to be installed in the forearm for use with a future-purchase, Spartan Javelin Pro Hunter bipod.

The main reason I want DOC White to restock the pistol is so I can shoot heavy bullets out of it comfortably.

Everything I've read about the Optima pistols says that they are punishing to shoot with bullets weighing over 250 grains.

I want to be able to shoot 300-400 grain bullets, grease groove, or saboted, without bruising my hand.

I figure with ergonomic Javelina-style stocks, a sling swivel base in the bottom of the pistol grip, a d-ring sling swivel in the base, a 1.5" wide, single-point sling clipped to the d-ring, the sling looped around the shooter's body, the weak hand pushing against the forward stubby hand grip, the strong hand controlling the pistol while pulling lightly backwards, and the properly adjusted sling making a continuous line between the muzzle of the pistol to a point just below the strong shoulder; all these things should allow for the full potential of this pistol to be utilized.

DOC White used a similar set-up when he shot his White Javelina's that were based on the G-series inline action.

There is no earthly reason that a pistol this strong should crap out at a 250 grain bullet, other than a terribly designed pistol grip. I am guessing that is why CVA stopped making them. Because sales were bad due to shooters not liking how they handled under recoil.

 

[deerlessbob]

Hope you’ll be able to post some pix of the converted pistol with the sling. Sounds really interesting.

 

[Matthew323]

Once it's all completed I'll be happy to do so.

To get a sense of what I hope DOC White can modify the Optima V2 pistol into, go to Whitemuzzleloading.com.

At the top of the page is a navigation box. Click onto the box and scroll down to Archives. Click onto the Archives page, and wait for it to load as there are a lot of images. When loaded, scroll down about 30-40 weapons, and you will find two examples of his Javelina pistols based on the G-series inline action.

Also on page 10 of the DWB section of this forum is a thread about a Javelina Pistol.

With the break-action of the Optima V2 pistol I will not have the advantage of the aluminum reinforcing bar that connects the bottom of the pistol grip to the bottom of the stubby fore grip on DOC White's Javelina.

But, if he can make it work as I have described above, then the pistol should be capable of shooting rifle sized bullet weights with controlled recoil that does not bruise one's hand.

Otherwise, I'll be shooting 250 grain, or less bullets, like everyone else.