Optima V2 accuracy challenge

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I tried the Harvester smooth short black and smooth green sabots yesterday with an assortment of XTP and Barnes bullets, using the same bench techniques, etc., although I did increase cooling time to 8 min before starting reloading since temps were in the low 60s rather than 30s. No noticeable change, 100 yard groups were 2.5 to 3 inches.

Best was 1.9 inch with 44 cal 300 gr XTP, Harvester smooth green sabot, and 70 wgr of BH209.

For comparison I fired 3 Barnes MZ 300 gr with the prepackaged HBH-12 sabots, could barely stuff them past the crown, and got a 4.5 inch group.

On barrel consistency and loading tightness... how much difference should there be in effort to push a sabot past the crown vs the rest of the barrel? Once past the first 5-6 inches in this gun it becomes much easier to load.
 
You mention cleaning BP occasionally and someone else asked do you clean both ends... Maybe I missed it, but do you also clean the barrel after every shot? (try every other shot, but shoot at different targets)... That way, the barrel is clean and partially cooled for each shot at one target and 2nd target is hot & dirty barrel (just like a 2nd shot while hunting - very instructive).
I also didn't see how much powder you are testing... I started with max loads of 150 grains of (I simply use Pyrodex pellets and powder), but quickly found that 120 grains shot best with 290 grain bullet and 110 grains was best with 250 grain bullet.
Wind also effects our slow ML bullets more than center fire... Is your vertical always on target, but off left/right? Ballistics predicts my 290 grain bullet (avg velocity measured at 1920 fps with 5 - 10 fps range should drift 2.12 inches in 10 mph cross wind... 160 grain 7 mm Rem Mag only drifts 0.58 inches - (but be advised, some velocities can be 200 fps slower and you would never know if not chronographed - why? who knows? chips in pellet? crushed pellets? Also check for creep on the plunger of your powder measure. I found that mine had started to unscrew and was measuring about 5 grains less than I thought.
1 MOA is tough because there are so many variables. You seem confident about the largest variable you can control; your shooting...
See if they will replace the gun. If not, keep searching for the best bullet/powder/primer combination... To do that, you can only change one variable at a time.
Try to get as close as you can to 1 MOA, because 1 MOA at the range always turns into 3- 4 MOA in the field, but still within 4 inch kill zone (if no wind)...
Good luck.
 
You mention cleaning BP occasionally and someone else asked do you clean both ends... Maybe I missed it, but do you also clean the barrel after every shot? (try every other shot, but shoot at different targets)... That way, the barrel is clean and partially cooled for each shot at one target and 2nd target is hot & dirty barrel (just like a 2nd shot while hunting - very instructive).
I also didn't see how much powder you are testing... I started with max loads of 150 grains of (I simply use Pyrodex pellets and powder), but quickly found that 120 grains shot best with 290 grain bullet and 110 grains was best with 250 grain bullet.
Wind also effects our slow ML bullets more than center fire... Is your vertical always on target, but off left/right? Ballistics predicts my 290 grain bullet (avg velocity measured at 1920 fps with 5 - 10 fps range should drift 2.12 inches in 10 mph cross wind... 160 grain 7 mm Rem Mag only drifts 0.58 inches - (but be advised, some velocities can be 200 fps slower and you would never know if not chronographed - why? who knows? chips in pellet? crushed pellets? Also check for creep on the plunger of your powder measure. I found that mine had started to unscrew and was measuring about 5 grains less than I thought.
1 MOA is tough because there are so many variables. You seem confident about the largest variable you can control; your shooting...
See if they will replace the gun. If not, keep searching for the best bullet/powder/primer combination... To do that, you can only change one variable at a time.
Try to get as close as you can to 1 MOA, because 1 MOA at the range always turns into 3- 4 MOA in the field, but still within 4 inch kill zone (if no wind)...
Good luck.

Thanks, great things to consider.

Starting with cleaning at the range. I usually start with a squeaky clean barrel and BP, then pop 2 primers. The first group is usually something I've previously tried, just to get the barrel dirty. On the advice of others I've stopped swabbing the barrel during a range trip since I'm using only BH209 powder. But after every group I turn the gun BP down and use a drill bit to clean out the area in front of the 209 primer pocket. Then I run a primer pick through the fire hole to ensure I didn't force any debris into it.

When I first started with 777 pellets (only powder in the local area at first) I swabbed between every shot with a lightly misted Windex/alcohol patch, and a dry patch. Went through most of a box of pellets before getting my hands on BH209. This seemed to keep the crud ring and loading pressure consistent.

For cooling I use my phone's stopwatch and don't start charging until 5 min have passed since the last shot (when it's in the 30s) or 8 min now that it's in the 50s and 60s. Also don't actually fire until 8-10 min have passed total (based on outside temp) but for each group the time between is consistent, unless interrupted by others wanting to check targets downrange.

For charges I was initially limited by pellets of 777 (50/100/150), but with BH209 I've used a variety from 60-82 gr by weight. Charges have been preweighed at home into loading tubes. I group my charges in batches of three in the charge box, so if there's any scale variation its minimal and the digital scale is calibrated when I start, and checked every few batches (scale is stored in a cold room, so it will vary slowly over time as it warms up; in-batch consistency should still be more than close enough).

Wind wise it has been breezy on sone outings, but most groups over the past few months have been shot at calm to under 5 mph, and I get as much vertical stringing as horizontal. Wind drift probably does have some effect, but shouldn't be keeping me near 3" groups most of the time.

I think i need to scale back my expectations of this gun. Will see what CVA has to say.
 
You have a lot of patience my friend . By this point I am afraid I may have made that gun into a tomato stake. I hope you can find the right combination to make that gun shoot to your expectations.
 
You have a lot of patience my friend . By this point I am afraid I may have made that gun into a tomato stake. I hope you can find the right combination to make that gun shoot to your expectations.

Fortunately I enjoy shooting and other guns in the safe have filled the barrel cooling wait time. Yesterday I rekindled my flame with a Remington pump 22. It was my first gun, and as a young pup it bagged many snowshoes and grouse.
 
order a set of thor sizing bullets if it isn't same feel all way down barrel could be your trouble with bore not right .It comes in .500 to .504 in 001 grads . I shoot thor full size and don't use sabots just powder and bullets size your bore then go from there .Factory has a .004 bore dia. they work with some times there not straight there tapered best barrels are straight . Good luck .
 
Are there iron sights on the rifle? Maybe shoot it at 50-75 yards without the scope so you can definitely rule out that the scope isn’t causing you trouble.
 
Spoke with CVA today. The rep says 2-3” is what is normal for this barrel.

I’ll send it in and they’ll check it out to see if it’s in spec and see what kind of groups they can get. I’m not optimistic.
 
Spoke with CVA today. The rep says 2-3” is what is normal for this barrel.

I’ll send it in and they’ll check it out to see if it’s in spec and see what kind of groups they can get. I’m not optimistic.

Normal! 2-3 inches. I'd ask for my money back... Ive got a Optima V2 Stainless LR model that will shoot lights out with BH 209 and a 300 gr 45 cal XTP, non mag bullet seated in a Harvester short black sabot, H5045SB. And the 300 gr 44 cal XTP in the green sabot shoot pretty dog gone good as well...

Prior to finding this load I tried the Crush Rib sabot, H15045BR, and the same bullet, accuracy was no good. That's when I switched to the above load and everything fell into place.
 
If everything checks out within spec and they send the original barrel back to you then consider a cut and crown. Maybe you’ll get luckey and cva will send a new rifle. Good luck.
 
Why are you shooting 300 gr bullets? Try the Hornady 250 great SST with the sabots provided with the bullets. Start with 100 grs, by volume, of Blackhorn. Try from 90 to 110 grs. CCI 209m or Fed 209a primers. The T/C Shockwave is the same as the SST. This works for me in several rifles.
 
Why are you shooting 300 gr bullets? Try the Hornady 250 great SST with the sabots provided with the bullets. Start with 100 grs, by volume, of Blackhorn. Try from 90 to 110 grs. CCI 209m or Fed 209a primers. The T/C Shockwave is the same as the SST. This works for me in several rifles.
I'm shooting 300 gr bullets because I prefer full pass through penetration, and plan to eventually use on game larger than deer. I've also tried both CCI 209M and Federal 209A primers; no change. At this point I've spent hundreds on powder and bullets; it's going back to CVA. I'll figure out the next step after CVA returns a rifle to me (whether it's a replacement or the same gun).
 
I tried the Harvester smooth short black and smooth green sabots yesterday with an assortment of XTP and Barnes bullets, using the same bench techniques, etc., although I did increase cooling time to 8 min before starting reloading since temps were in the low 60s rather than 30s. No noticeable change, 100 yard groups were 2.5 to 3 inches.

Best was 1.9 inch with 44 cal 300 gr XTP, Harvester smooth green sabot, and 70 wgr of BH209.

With that 300 grain pill I think you need to add a bit more fuel. I'd go up 77 grains weighed before I sent that gun back. When I began shooting the BH209 powder in my .50 cal long guns and using the 300 grain XTPs for the same season you cite I started with 56 grains weighed, then 63, then 70, and finally 77 grains....all weighed. I tried the 84 grain weighed max but saw zero improvement over the 77, but I saw a marked improvement in group size with every increase up to the 77 grain load. This was almost universal in three guns. The same thing took place with my .45 Kodiak using a 200 grain XTP using the same 56, 63, 70, 77, 84 grain weighed charges. In the .45 the 70 and 77 grain loads shoot identical at 100 yards. The 84 weighed grain load opened up significantly. The 56 and 63 grain loads closed up with the jump in charge weight. I hunt the gun using the 70 weighed grain charge and get clean shoot thrus inside of 100 yards. In your .50 cal I'd be booting the charge up a hair with the 300 grain pill. I shoot with several others with the Optima .50s and they all shoot the 77 weighed grain [110 by volume] loads using the same 300 grain XTP and they all get 1" or slightly less at 100 yards on calm days and when they are doing their part. I think you're a little light on powder.
 
I’ve tried 75, 77, 80, 82, and 84 gr charges by weight as well, as the online calculators suggested here earlier indicate for a 1:28 twist and the bullets I have the stability is improved at faster velocity. So you’re right, it should have helped. Unfortunately it didn’t make a difference though.
 
Honestly, I think many set their expectations way too high when it comes to their muzzle loaders. As mentioned, a 1 MOA from a muzzler loader is more the exception than than the rule. I've seen it happen but have seen the majority hang around that 1.5" group mark. My Optima V2 is as predictable as the day is long with it's groupings. Using a 250 gr. Barnes TEZ on top of 100 gr ob BH209 and a CCI magnum primer...the first two shots will typically go into under an inch, if I do my part...have had them touching on more than one occasion. Then the third will predictably go a touch high and left, usually opening the group up to around the 1.5" mark. I can live with that. I don't usually let the barrel cool much in between shots. Doing so may produce a different result from the third shot.
 
Honestly, I think many set their expectations way too high when it comes to their muzzle loaders. As mentioned, a 1 MOA from a muzzler loader is more the exception than than the rule. I've seen it happen but have seen the majority hang around that 1.5" group mark. My Optima V2 is as predictable as the day is long with it's groupings. Using a 250 gr. Barnes TEZ on top of 100 gr ob BH209 and a CCI magnum primer...the first two shots will typically go into under an inch, if I do my part...have had them touching on more than one occasion. Then the third will predictably go a touch high and left, usually opening the group up to around the 1.5" mark. I can live with that. I don't usually let the barrel cool much in between shots. Doing so may produce a different result from the third shot.

I've yet to find a load that will consistently group under 3 inches at 100 yards. Maybe expecting better is a bit picky, but it's in my nature to push the group size as small as I can. I've had a couple groups near 1.5 inches, but they've been anomalies over a few hundred shots.

I'll see what CVA says when they look at it. They're customer service reputation seems good, and the guy I talked with was courteous and helpful.

My apologies if any of my posts have come across as snarky, it's not intended, I'm just at wits end. I think I got a lemon, or at least one of their lesser performers.
 
that's a bummer. I hope you get it sorted. I feel your pain cause I too spent a lot of money working up a load for my Omega. I went thru 3 jugs of BH and many different bullet/sabot combos. Finally came together and I can get good consistent groups. I jumped thru many hoops trying to get this thing to shoot but after getting some good advice on this forum, I think what made the difference was eliminating any products with Teflon in the bore. Rem oil/ Breakfree CLP. Good luck.
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Nope, you're not being picky. 3 inch groups are a bit much. The Optima V2 can shoot better than that.
 

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