Paper patch bullet recommendation

[tfacis]

Thank you for a great site with lots of information. I live in Idaho and have a Vortek Northwest Magnum in 50 caliber with a 1-28 twist. I have measured the bore and it is .5028. I would like to find a good paper patch bullet for it that will be good for elk. I was thinking I would need a .495 mold. Is that what would you guys recommend?
Also, would I just use pure lead or would I want to add a little tin? Or, would you recommend skipping the paper patch and shooting a commercial lead bullet (have to have all lead in Idaho with Muzzleloader bullets)? Thanks in advance for your help.

 

[Idaholewis]

Paper Patch Bullets are a lot of fun to Shoot, and can be very rewarding accuracy wise if you get everything Right, But not anymore so than a Good Grease Groove Bullet (Depending on Rifle/Load) It’s my Personal opinion, Due to me Shooting Swiss Real Blackpowder, and my Style of Elk Hunting (Ground & Pound) That my Paper Patch are not The greatest choice for a Hunting Bullet, For me. I love them for Bench Rest/Target Shooting Where i have Full Control, Where i have all the time i need to Swab my Bore GOOD Before Reloading, Paper Patching for Muzzleloader is Where i Started in Muzzleloading, I Shoot a TON of Paper Patch Bullets on Targets

Here is my Method of Paper Patching
https://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/threads/paper-patching-for-muzzleloaders-video.32608/
With Swiss Real Blackpowder The Fouling is Dry, and ROUGH, Try and Reload a Bullet with a Very thin Paper Jacket down a Swiss Real Blackpowder Fouled Bore and Failure awaits you. It feels about the Equivalent of 80 Grit Sandpaper. Remember, There is NO Lube with Paper Patch, Therefore the Fouling is Dry, BRUTAL When using Swiss Real Blackpowder. If i were to Hunt with my Paper Patch Bullets, i would carry a Sealed container of HIGH Content Alcohol Patches So i Could Swab Quickly Before Reloading (This is Less than ideal if you have a Wounded Animal, Where every second can be Precious)

2nd, Again Remember you are dealing with a Thin Paper Jacketed Bullet, They have to Slide Down the Bore with little Resistance, if they are to Tight you Risk Stripping the Paper Jacket, or Pushing the Bullet Through the Paper Jacket (I have done both a Few times) When you slide a “Slip Fit” Paper Patch Bullet down the Bore it doesn’t take a Heck of a Lot to Get that Bullet to Move Back off the Powder Charge. My Style of Elk Hunting here in North Idaho is Walking for Miles n Miles, Through no telling what kind of Terrain? I don’t have a Sling on my Rifle, This Country is EXTREMELY Brushy for the Most Part, I carry my Rifle Straight Forward Barrel Down navigating through the “Jungle”, or Cradled Across my Arm the Chances i can do so, like walking an Old Logging Road. When Hunting, The LAST thing i want to Worry about is My Bullet Slipping off the Powder Charge, I pull up and Shoot, Very Possibly “Ringing” My Barrel. I know me, I would CONSTANTLY be Checking my Bullet with Gun Rod to Make sure it hadn’t Moved

For me Personally, my Style of Elk Hunting, I want a Good Snug/Tight Fitting Bullet that i have to Push down the Bore with Good SOLID Pressure, This is gonna be a Grease Groove Bullet. This way i can Hunt with Confidence Knowing that my Bullet will ABSOLUTELY Stay Put on the Powder Charge Where it Belongs. On the other hand, If i were “Stand Hunting” For Whitetail, Where i am Sitting either on the Ground, or Elevated in a Stand (I stay on the Ground) I could Use my Paper Patch Bullets Confidently for this Style of Hunt. I would be in MUCH Better Control of my Bullet on the Powder Here, Now i just have to Swab before i can Reload.

If Hunting With Paper Patch Bullets is something you wish to Pursue, and wish to seek other Possible Alternatives for PP than i said above, Look up Idahoron, He Hunts Exclusively with His Paper Patch Bullets. Ron goes about Paper Patching VERY Differently than i do, Ron Patches a Much Larger Bullet from the Mold, Then Pushes Them Through a Sizer Die, He uses a Different Powder than i do as well (Pyrodex P) Which Allows him to Reload a Fouled Bore Many times Due to it Being a Soft “Gooey” Type Fouling. Ron Has methods of Carrying/Transporting his Rifle (On His Person, In a Vehicle, and on his ATV) to help ensure his Bullet Stays on the Powder Charge. It works Well for Him, Ron has taken a Lot of Game with his Paper Patch Bullets

Whatever you choose, Good Luck with it! And Welcome to the Forum

 

[tfacis]

Thank you for all the information! I drew a resident unit 54 elk muzzleloading tag in Idaho and want to refine my muzzleloader accuracy. I have used No Excuses in the past and the accuracy has been ok but not stellar. I have been using 70 grains of 777 behind a 460 grain bullet. My barrel is .5028 and the bullets are around .504 ish. The bullets go in fairly easy. I have the ability to cast bullets and have done so in the past. If I wanted to follow your path and go with the snug fit grease groove bullet what would you suggest for bullet and powder? Are there commercial bullets that would fit more snug in my barrel?

 

[Idaholewis]

Thank you for all the information! I drew a resident unit 54 elk muzzleloading tag in Idaho and want to refine my muzzleloader accuracy. I have used No Excuses in the past and the accuracy has been ok but not stellar. I have been using 70 grains of 777 behind a 460 grain bullet. My barrel is .5028 and the bullets are around .504 ish. The bullets go in fairly easy. I have the ability to cast bullets and have done so in the past. If I wanted to follow your path and go with the snug fit grease groove bullet what would you suggest for bullet and powder? Are there commercial bullets that would fit more snug in my barrel?

If a guy don’t Cast his own Bullets? I have always advised Bullshop from my Personal Experience with them, I liked Dan’s Bullshop 460 Well Enough that i had the Bullet Copied (A new Mold Made) But I have a Friend that i FULLY Trust what he tells me, Tell me that he Ordered Bullets from Bullshop that Arrived in pretty Rough Shape, He Contacted Bullshop and they had no interest in making it right?? That Bums me out! I have sent a LOT of Business to Bullshop in the last Few Years, Unfortunately I can’t do that in Good Faith anymore. Shipping a Box of Lead Bullets individually Protected Can’t be that Difficult? If you are gonna Sell a Quality Bullet, For Crying out loud PACKAGE THEM So they Can’t Touch, and Self Destruct in Shipping!

The hard part about Ordering Bullets is Quality Control of them, Who Knows what you are Getting? Bullet Bases are EXTREMELY important for Accuracy, The Only outfit that i Know Cares about how their PP Bullets Arrive to the Customer is BACO (Buffalo Arms Co.) They understand the importance of SHARP Bullet Bases, They ship in Cartons that individually protect each Bullet, Instead of letting them Bang against each other (I believe they are Made by Bitterroot Bullets in Montana? I know they are Swaged, Pure Lead) I don’t know how they Ship their Home Cast? I imagine in the Same Individually Protected Cartons?

My problem with Buffalo Arms for a Hunting Bullet is they use 1-20 Alloy for almost all of their Cast Bullets, And That is WAY to Hard For Good Expansion in Game at Real Blackpowder Muzzleloader Velocities (1300 to 1500 Fps)

This is what Buffalo Arms Ships in, Their Carton, My Cast Bullets

1 of my Paper Patch Bullets From a Custom Mold i had Made, Notice the SHARP Bases, this is what you want

If you can Cast your Own, I Advise you to Get this Mold, Now YOU are in Control of the Quality of your Bullets, This is the ONLY Way to go in my opinion, Do them yourself Accurate Molds #51-450M With a Few Mods, Do away with the Bevel Base, and Have all Bands the Same Diameter, For a Iron Accurate Mold such as this, you are looking at 125 Bucks to your Door, Aluminum is 76 i Believe? I MUCH MUCH prefer Steel/Iron, Just a Personal Preference

This Bullet will do this DAY IN, and DAY OUT, As long as you do your Part, This was my Original Bullshop

This is my Latest, Modified Version

 

[Idaholewis]

Here is another BIG Grease Groove Bullet that would put a SERIOUS WALLOP on an Elk Another Custom Mold i had made

It shoots Good if you can hang on to it

Putting the BIG Bullet on Steel, She Hits HARD!!

 

[Idaholewis]

Here is another VERY Good .50 Cal Bullet i Cast/Shoot, This is Another of my Favorites. I chose this one to Elk Hunt with a Few years ago in our Late Cow Elk Season, I killed my Elk with it A Close friend of mine here Shoots this one in his Knight BigHorn Rifle, This is a REALLY Good Shooting Bullet

This Bullet comes in at 485 Grains when Cast of PURE Lead

 

[Idaholewis]

If you prefer a lighter Bullet, in the 395-400 Grains, These 2 are as good as it gets, and WELL Proven

The Lyman Plains .50 Cal, From a Lyman Mold. You can’t buy these in a Store, They are a Mold ONLY Bullet. This Bullet is EVERY BIT as good as ANY of my Custom Molds, The Lyman Plains is an AWESOME Bullet

And another Custom Bullet i had made

Another Friend of mine here used this Bullet 2 years ago in our Late Cow ONLY Season, It worked well for him

 

[Idaholewis]

There’s a few for ya to Look at

There is NOTHING in the World Wrong with a Paper Patch Bullet, and i wasn’t in ANY way trying to Talk you out of using them, I was simply pointing out what I Consider Weaknesses in them as a Hunting Bullet, The Decision is ultimately YOURS as to What you want to use? If you understand Paper Patch, and the Little “Quirks” that Go with them, They are a DARN Good Bullet. But FACT is They require a LOT MORE Tinkering With, and they DON’T Shoot ANY Better than a Good Grease Groove Bullet. So Far i have been able to Develop EXCELLENT Paper Patch, And Grease Groove Loads for EVERY Muzzleloader i own, For Targets I really enjoy Paper Patch, They are a COOL Bullet, with History that Dates them WAY Back in the 1800s, But when it comes to Putting Boot leather on the Ground, Hunting the way i Elk Hunt here in North Idaho, There will be a Good Snug Fitting Grease Groove Bullet in my Rifle

This is my .54 Version, i have this Bullet in .50 Cal as well, it was my Very first Custom Mold, I Own about 60-70 Molds Now, The Casting Hobby has been a SLIPPERY SLOPE for me

 

[tfacis]

Great information Idaholewis and some awesome shooting!
I like the idea of the grease groove bullet for now as hunting season is only 12 weeks away. I like the idea of bullet in the 385-400 grain range as the 460 grain bullets with 70 grains of 777 packs a wallop.
The Lyman Plains bullet sounds like a great bullet for my purposes.
What outer diameter bullet would you suggest for my barrel bore of .5028, or is it not that big of a deal in a grease groove bullet?
Is there a way to purchase bullets from molds before I have one made so I know what will shoot well?
Would you suggest the Swiss FF for hunting in Idaho?

 

[Idaholewis]

I am not a Fan of ANY Substitute powders, They have Special Requirements that must be met or they Can/Will Fail, The main one with Triple Seven, And Pyrodex is Flash Hole size. I use Treso/Ampco Nipples, Due to their Durability, They hold up VERY WELL, They are one of the Best Nipples i have used, They come with a Tiny .028 Flash Hole (Designed Around Real Blackpowder) This tiny .028 Flash Hole is to Small To Reliably ignite Substitute Powders such as Triple Seven, And Pyrodex, You might get away with it Once, Maybe Several times? But you will almost Certainly get Hangfires along the line, With Sub Powders this .028 Flash Hole SHOULD Be Opened Slightly, to about .032-.033, And NOT More than .035 Which is what a TC Hotshot Nipple is.

With Real Blackpowder such as Swiss, ignition is IMMEDIATE With the Tiny .028 Flash Hole, Real Blackpowder needs the tiniest of Spark And it’s BOOM!! I personally wouldn’t Trust my Elk Hunt to ANYTHING Else. Swiss Real Blackpowder is Preferred, And used by Serious, and World Champion Shooters for Good Reason, it is as Good as it gets

 

[Saxtonyoung]

I've used a lot of Triple 7 and thought it was the cats meow but that was when I was shooting an inline with 209 primers. The last couple years I've been playing with the sidelocks with percussion caps and found that I had a lot of misfires. So I decided to pull a can of Pyrodex of the shelf and was having similar issues. Thought my fire channel may have been the problem so I steamed and cleaned it thoroughly, same problem. Pulled a can goex that I had for 35 years off the shelf, problem solved. Following Lewis's recommendation I recently picked up some Swiss Black Powder but haven't shot it yet, maybe this weekend.

 

[Idaholewis]

I've used a lot of Triple 7 and thought it was the cats meow but that was when I was shooting an inline with 209 primers. The last couple years I've been playing with the sidelocks with percussion caps and found that I had a lot of misfires. So I decided to pull a can of Pyrodex of the shelf and was having similar issues. Thought my fire channel may have been the problem so I steamed and cleaned it thoroughly, same problem. Pulled a can goex that I had for 35 years off the shelf, problem solved. Following Lewis's recommendation I recently picked up some Swiss Black Powder but haven't shot it yet, maybe this weekend.

I have seen some REALLY Odd things happen with Substitute powders, Enough that it ENDED me messing with them, and put a Forever Thought in the back of my Mind “Will it go off this Time without a Hitch?” Trust in my Equipment is a MAJOR Part of this Sport/Hobby to me, And simply Put, I don’t trust ANY of the Substitute Powders, i have ZERO Faith in them. On the other Hand, i would Trust my LIFE, If it was on the line With Swiss Real Blackpowder. As I’ve said Many times, I am very fortunate to have Buffalo Arms in my Backyard, I can get any Real Blackpowder that i want Monday-Friday, I stay Faithful to Swiss 2F Though. That said, for me to go with a Substitute Powder would be Going Backwards, At least in my opinion, and from my HANDS ON Experience with the Sub Powders.

Knowing what i do today, if i were to Move away from here, and Lose this easy access to Swiss Real Blackpowder, I would UNDOUBTEDLY Order it, and Have ZERO problem paying the Hazmat Fee

I will close on a Final Note here, Even as Bad as I DESPISE ALL Substitute Powders, When a Failure Happens, it is not likely that the Powder Failed us (Though it can, Some of it can Go Bad) It is MUCH more likely that WE Failed the Powder By not Following it’s Requirements. To me personally, The Substitute Powders are just to FINICKY for me to mess with, and Trust, Especially on my Hunts.

 

[tfacis]

Thank you for all your help Idaholewis and Saxtonyoung! Swiss it is! I will get some Swiss from Buffalo Arms which is just up the road from Boise!
I still have a couple questions on a good bullet diameter to start with for my barrel. It seems that my .5028 barrel is a bit on the large size for a 50 caliber. So, what size diameter bullet would you start with in a GG bullet? I am assuming the answer to this question would determine what bullet mold I would want to get? Or, would an off the shelf mold be just fine?
The second question is whether there is a source to purchase different bullets from the bullet molds in order to find out which bullet is most accurate prior to purchasing a set of molds?
I am immensely grateful for MM and for the outstanding mentoring. Thank you!

 

[Idaholewis]

Thank you for all your help Idaholewis and Saxtonyoung! Swiss it is! I will get some Swiss from Buffalo Arms which is just up the road from Boise!
I still have a couple questions on a good bullet diameter to start with for my barrel. It seems that my .5028 barrel is a bit on the large size for a 50 caliber. So, what size diameter bullet would you start with in a GG bullet? I am assuming the answer to this question would determine what bullet mold I would want to get? Or, would an off the shelf mold be just fine?
The second question is whether there is a source to purchase different bullets from the bullet molds in order to find out which bullet is most accurate prior to purchasing a set of molds?
I am immensely grateful for MM and for the outstanding mentoring. Thank you!

Buffalo Arms is a Little Farther than just up the Rd from Boise, About 8 hours, and 425 Miles up the Road I live about 25 Minutes from Buffalo Arms. Idaho is a BIG State, Boise and us are at Opposite ends

 

[Idaholewis]

Thank you for all your help Idaholewis and Saxtonyoung! Swiss it is! I will get some Swiss from Buffalo Arms which is just up the road from Boise!
I still have a couple questions on a good bullet diameter to start with for my barrel. It seems that my .5028 barrel is a bit on the large size for a 50 caliber. So, what size diameter bullet would you start with in a GG bullet? I am assuming the answer to this question would determine what bullet mold I would want to get? Or, would an off the shelf mold be just fine?
The second question is whether there is a source to purchase different bullets from the bullet molds in order to find out which bullet is most accurate prior to purchasing a set of molds?
I am immensely grateful for MM and for the outstanding mentoring. Thank you!

Bullet size, Soft Lead, With the Bore dimensions you give, i say .504, I actually have a .504 From opening a .501 Up for a Friend with a Knight Bighorn that has a Large Bore, since i Cast for him on a BLUE MOON Occasion, he gave me the Sizer Die.

Sadly, I don’t know a Source for Good Quality Cast Bullets anymore that i can Recommend in Good Faith? I can show some pretty Serious Fault with the Only few I know of that Sell Cast Bullets. I hope they get their Together and Start offering some High QC Bullets, Weighed and Sorted, Sharp Bullet Bases, And packaged so they Can’t Bang against eachother and Self Destruct in Shipping. I TOTALLY understand this would Cost more, I know if i were a NON Caster, i would GLADLY Pay more for HIGH QC Bullets. At least make it an Option for the Guy’s that want a HIGH QUALITY Bullet, and aren’t afraid to pay for them. If i ruffled some Feathers here? GOOD!! I hope you listen. If so, I will GLADLY Get behind ya, But until, or if then? I REFUSE to Recommend Your Cast Bullets. This isn’t to benefit me, i don’t cast for other people, I don’t Sell Bullets, I cast for myself.

My Best Advice is to Cast your Own Bullets. This way YOU are in Control of the Quality of your Bullets With a Bore that Size, i would get Accurate Mold #51-450M, Do away with the Bevel Base, and Go ALL Bands .504 with Accurate’s PLUS Tolerance Window, This ensures the Bullet will be at least .504 Diameter, and could be as large as .506 (Accurate Molds has a .002 Tolerance Window) And Lastly, Get a Lee .501 Push Through Bullet Sizer and Open it to What you need, Then you simply Lube your Bullets, and Push Them Through your Sizer.

 

[Idaholewis]

If this isn’t something you do Regularly (Shooting Muzzleloaders) and Just can’t Justify the Cost of a Bullet Mold, and Sizer Die? The Only option left that i can think of? Is to Contact Bullshop (They are Email Only, unless they have Changed?) And No Excuses Bullets, Explain to them that you are Seeking to Buy a Box of HIGH QUALITY Bullets, and that you understand the Difference in Good HIGH QC Bullets, and JUNK, that you would like them to Weigh within Reason of Eachother, And can they Provide these? Maybe they will want a Few Extra Bucks? If they can Guarantee, and Stand Behind them? Their Bullets would DEFINITELY be Worth a Little more!! They both have AWESOME Bullet Designs

Other than that, You don’t say a Word, purchase Bullets from them and Hope for the Best

Buffalo Arms would be my VERY 1ST Choice, But like i said above, Their Home Cast Bullets are 1-20 Alloy, Which I Personally feel is WAY to Hard for a Hunting Bullet, You will Get Little, if any Expansion from an Alloy like that. For a Hunting Bullet, at Typical Muzzleloader Velocities (1300 to 1500 Fps) Pure Lead will be the Performance KING, Best possible expansion

 

[tfacis]

Thanks Idaholewis! Yes, Idaho is a big and great state!
I think I have all my questions asked....for now.. . I will call No Excuses and see what he says. Otherwise, I like your suggestion of a .504 mold. I'll post back with what the targets produce next week. Many, many thanks to you and MM!

 

[Idaholewis]

Thanks Idaholewis! Yes, Idaho is a big and great state!
I think I have all my questions asked....for now.. . I will call No Excuses and see what he says. Otherwise, I like your suggestion of a .504 mold. I'll post back with what the targets produce next week. Many, many thanks to you and MM!

Good Luck! Keep me posted on your Progress Any further Questions, Don’t hesitate to ask

 

[Curtis]

I ordered a 530gr .45 cal PP mold from Buffalo arms a couple days back, as recommended by several competition shooters I know, as well as Lewis's great testimonials given on this site! Looking forward to casting with the new mold when it arrives!

Curtis

 

[Idaholewis]

I ordered a 530gr .45 cal PP mold from Buffalo arms a couple days back, as recommended by several competition shooters I know, as well as Lewis's great testimonials given on this site! Looking forward to casting with the new mold when it arrives!

Curtis

You will be happy with that Bullet Mold Curtis, Buffalo Arms (Jim B) Makes an AWESOME Mold, 2nd to NONE

I have a couple of their Paper Patch Molds for .45 Cal

JIM443530E, .443 Diameter 530 Grain Elliptical, This is an AWESOME Long Range PP Bullet, as good as they Get

And this one (JIM443400) this was my Design, Cupped Base, Nose Pour, This is an AWESOME Bullet as Well, Kinda Tricky to Cast, Takes some getting use to the Mold. I have Shot this Bullet VERY WELL to 800 Yards, And MANY Ragged Hole Groups at Closer Ranges, With at least 3 Different Rifles. This is another of my Favorite .45 Cal PP Bullets.