Paper patched bullets

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Dougs136Schwartz

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I have been playing around with some 530 grain
442 paper patched bullets . I can't get the groups I want just yet . Been playing with velocities from 1100 fps to 1300 fps . The bullets are from Buffalo arms . They don't seem to be real uniform . Most go down easy but some seem to go down a little harder. I thought about running them through my sizing die but then I was not sure if the paper would still shed ? Is bullet fit crucial with a heavy lead paper patched bullet ?
 

long shot

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maybe some are wrapped tighter. Jason Day runs his through a sizer with paper on. Lee 448. Aren't over lapped are you?
 

Idaholewis

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I shoot the BACO .444-400s in my TC Hawken with .45 Cal Green Mountain LRH Barrel 1:30 Twist and they Shoot EXTREMELY well, After Patching i run them through my .449 ‘finish’ sizer, i can barely feel resistance, basically just ‘irons’ the paper, they load extremely well in my barrel. I am shooting these bullets very well out to 500 yards. Like 45cal said, make sure you are not overlapping, it’s better to slightly under wrap than over

Here are my .444-400s Wrapped


Here are some BACO .492 550s, if you look closely you can see these are lined up about perfect, slightly under wrapped
 

Idaholewis

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Dougs136Schwartz said:
I have been playing around with some 530 grain
442 paper patched bullets . I can't get the groups I want just yet . Been playing with velocities from 1100 fps to 1300 fps . The bullets are from Buffalo arms . They don't seem to be real uniform . Most go down easy but some seem to go down a little harder. I thought about running them through my sizing die but then I was not sure if the paper would still shed ? Is bullet fit crucial with a heavy lead paper patched bullet ?
Those bullets should be as uniform as you can possibly get, at least all of them I’ve tried have been, they are a Swaged bullet from pure lead wire. I have been in Buffalo Arms when Jim is making these
 

Idaholewis

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When running these BACO Swaged, Cupped base bullets through a ‘Finish’ sizer (.448-.449) Use CAUTION, From the Swaging process they can have a Burr around the base and it can cut your paper like a Razor! I use a really fine sandpaper (600 grit does great) set the base flat on the paper on a solid surface and just make a slight half turn or so, all you are doing is removing the burr, You definitely DONT wanna change/disfigure the base in anyway, Then i take my RCBS case deburring tool and again just a very light turn to take that knife sharp edge off from around the base. I actually pushed 1 of these through the paper jacket 1 time during loading and didn’t realize i had done it until i fired, i had just barely started my .060 Vege fibre wad and put my bullet on top of it and pushed them both to the powder at the same time, the resistance from the Wad fooled me, had i of seated my wad on the powder alone first, and then sent my bullet down i would have felt the bullet slip through the paper jacket, these load really easy in my rifle. When my rifle went off it sounded odd, Hardly any recoil. This is the 100 yard group i was working on when this happened (peep sights) the odd shot either went straight through the center of this group, or totally missed the target? My bet is the ladder



Here is what can happen from the sharp base/Burr i am talking about. Luckily i caught this before leaving home that morning, i checked my 10 bullets i had ready to go and every single 1 of them had slight cuts in the paper jacket base, i had to slightly deburr, and repatch all 10 bullets over again. You wouldn’t want to be at a Match Shoot and discover this!
 

edmehlig

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Wonder if it would be better to size them base first? I’ve been doing that lately. Find it easier to wipe excess lube from the bullets.
 

Dougs136Schwartz

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The bullets I have came already paper patched . What little I know about heavy lead and paper patched bullets they seem to like very little resistance going down the bore . Mine have some resistance . I think a little to much because some bullets go down a little harder than others . It's not enough to effect my velosity . I shot 5 across my Magnaspeed with a 5 ES . I just was not sure if some bullets fitting tighter than others would make a difference .

I'm going to try to run them through my sizing die . From what I have read and watched most guys like their paper patched bullets to go down the bore with basically the weight of the ram rod . Right now I need to push them down with some resistance . This is all new to me . I have a lot more experimenting to do with different wads and powder charges . Right now it's close to hunting accuracy but I need to be able to shoot sub MOA . Which I know is possible if I can figure out the correct load combo.
 

Idaholewis

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edmehlig said:
Wonder if it would be better to size them base first? I’ve been doing that lately. Find it easier to wipe excess lube from the bullets.
I forgot to mention this above, But This is PRECISELY how i do it. I always send these BACO PP bullets thru my ‘Finish’ sizer Base first :yeah:

There was a pretty neat write up from Lee Shavers on George Gomph (Tennessee Bullet Molds) sizer dies, and the advantages of sizing base first. George sent me the emai and I enjoyed reading it, have to see if i can find that Article of Lee’s and post a link to it. I believe the Article was written in Lee’s Single Shot Exchange Magazine
 

Idaholewis

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Dougs136Schwartz said:
The bullets I have came already paper patched . What little I know about heavy lead and paper patched bullets they seem to like very little resistance going down the bore . Mine have some resistance . I think a little to much because some bullets go down a little harder than others . It's not enough to effect my velosity . I shot 5 across my Magnaspeed with a 5 ES . I just was not sure if some bullets fitting tighter than others would make a difference .

I'm going to try to run them through my sizing die . From what I have read and watched most guys like their paper patched bullets to go down the bore with basically the weight of the ram rod . Right now I need to push them down with some resistance . This is all new to me . I have a lot more experimenting to do with different wads and powder charges . Right now it's close to hunting accuracy but I need to be able to shoot sub MOA . Which I know is possible if I can figure out the correct load combo.
All of my PP bullets in numerous rifles go down really easy, just a thumb and index finger on the Rangerod is all that is needed, absolutely no forcing my bullets down. My PP hunting loads are a totally different deal, i worked with sizers and different patching techniques to get a MUCH tighter fit for my hunting bullets, the last thing i want out hunting is a ‘Slip Fit’ PP bullet to slide off my powder charge. I swear by the .060 Vege Fibre OP wads with my PP bullets
 

Dougs136Schwartz

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I have .030 and .060 veggie wads . I have been trying heavy wool wads . I also have the compressed paper wads . I have 2 BPCR and a Gibbs that will be shooting heavy lead exclusively just thought I would play around with some heavy lead with my Inlines . From the numbers I have ran my wind drift will be very very close at longer ranges . Lighter and fast or slower and heavy wind drift is almost identical . (If I'm correct running the numbers on a Balistic app). The drop I could care less about . My distances are known . I can't leave anything alone constantly experimenting .
 

Dougs136Schwartz

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I'll try to loosen my bullets up a little and I'll try the .060 Veggie wads . What velosity am i looking for with a paper patched 530 bullet or does that matter ? Loads I have been playing with have been 1100 fps to 1275 fps . Seems like the slower loads do a little better.

I also have some GG bullets . I've been told not to push them over 1300fps or leading will occur . Is that correct ?
 

long shot

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only reason PP can't be too tight is you will slip the bullet through the paper. should be able to get 1330 or a little less 13205( Sorry 1325) with grease groove don't know who said it would lead.
 

long shot

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only reason PP can't be too tight is you will slip the bullet through the paper. should be able to get 1330 or a little less 13205( Sorry 1325) with grease groove don't know who said it would lead. Carteridge 1100 to 1250 is about right, for 45-70
 

Idaholewis

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Dougs136Schwartz said:
I have .030 and .060 veggie wads . I have been trying heavy wool wads . I also have the compressed paper wads . I have 2 BPCR and a Gibbs that will be shooting heavy lead exclusively just thought I would play around with some heavy lead with my Inlines . From the numbers I have ran my wind drift will be very very close at longer ranges . Lighter and fast or slower and heavy wind drift is almost identical . (If I'm correct running the numbers on a Balistic app). The drop I could care less about . My distances are known . I can't leave anything alone constantly experimenting .
You will get it ironed out! The Vege Fibre .060s are my ‘Go To’ OP Wads for all of my PP loads in all of my Rifles. I have tried wool, and they just don’t do as well for me? You have to remember those bases are cupped, unless you have your twisted paper tail large and tucked up in the cup filling it full, there is a really good chance that the .45 Cal wool wad is being pushed up inside the Cupped base, assuming you are using true .45 Cal wool wads, that could leave room around an edge of the bullet for Gases to escape around it, When i use a Wool Wad with a .45 Cal and PP bullet i go with oversize .50 Cal Wool Wads, the .50 Cals are easy to get started in a .45 Bore, but they seal MUCH better, and if some was to sink up inside the cup base there is plenty to keep the rest of the bore filled/sealed

When it comes to a Grease Groove bullet i load 1 .060 Vege Fibre on top of the powder, then a Wool Wad, i want the base of my GG bullets against Wool. I have had EXCELLENT results doing this! The times i have tried just a .060 Vege OP wad with a GG bullet accuracy was never really good? My theory is the Vege fibre wad is sticking to the base of the bullet from the lube and upon exiting the bore it hangs on for a ways, causing the bullet to steer a little differently each time (that’s my Theory anyway and I’m sticking to it!) But when i use a Wool Wad at the Bullet base Accuracy is AWESOME :yeah: So with PP bullets i swear by the .060 Vege Fibre, and with GG bullets i swear by the Wool
 

Dougs136Schwartz

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I honestly can't remember where I heard or read that you should keep GG bullets bullets at 1300 fps or slower . I think I may have read that on a BPCR forum . But that may not apply with a muzzleloader.

Bullet fit being to tight causing the paper to tear makes complete sense . I never gave that a thought . Thanks Bob .
 

Dougs136Schwartz

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Thanks Lewis I'll give that a try also . I was using .45 wool wads . That also makes sense about the seal . Although my ES was very good so I have to be getting a decent seal ? Again this is all new . Do you guys push the wad down against the powder before loading the bullet ? With my bore riding jacketed bullets I push everything down at the same time .
 

Idaholewis

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Dougs136Schwartz said:
Thanks Lewis I'll give that a try also . I was using .45 wool wads . That also makes sense about the seal . Although my ES was very good so I have to be getting a decent seal ? Again this is all new . Do you guys push the wad down against the powder before loading the bullet ? With my bore riding jacketed bullets I push everything down at the same time .
I didn’t even think about that, With your ES that good you must be getting a good solid gas seal :yeah:

With my ‘Slip Fit’ PP bullets i prefer to seat the .060 Vege fibre to the powder by itself, that way i can feel the bullet by itself all the way down. In one of my posts above I explained of an incident, I actually pushed a bullet through the paper jacket 1 time and i didn’t catch it, The reason I didn’t catch it was i pushed both Vege Wad and bullet together to the powder, the Vege fibre OP wads go down noticeably harder than my ‘Slip Fit’ PP bullets, Had i of seated the wad first, then the slip fit bullet by itself i would have felt the bullet push thru the paper jacket. I am confident it happened the last few inches or so, probably from a crud ring I didn’t get thorough enough from my previous Swabbing. After that incident, that was the last time i seated both together.
 

long shot

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good thought what Idaho just said about wad, that way you know when you seat the wad on powder and bullet on wad. you can feel it. One thing to remember about the wad is it also wipes the bore on way down
 

Dougs136Schwartz

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Still trying . At times it showed some promise . I'm having better luck with lighter loads . Loads that are around 1100 fps vs 1300 fps . I tried a veggie wad but for some reason the bullet hit the target sideways . With wool wads the bullets are cutting clean holes. I'm having fun experimenting . If I can't get it to come together I can always go back to my go to loads with my bore riding copper bullets . Thanks for all the imput
 
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