Paramount 40 with Parker 250 grain ELR Bullets

[ElDiablo]

While Arizona might allow a .40 bullet to be used on elk, they're big, tough animals and I think that regardless of how well one can place shots with even premium bullets of .40 caliber, ethics should be considered. Many states feel a .45 cal is not enough.

There's a huge difference in what a gun/bullet does on paper at a range and what it does on a truely big game animal.

My thoughts exactly! I wouldn’t use less than a 300 gr bonded or controlled expansion bullet for elk or other tough game.

 

[GM54-120]

Imagine a 400gr 40cal lead conical hitting a elk. Remember the old 405Win? Well, a 300gr sabotless 40cal is nearly the same ballistically speaking. 2100fps should be possible if a 250gr is hitting 2300+. Also remember, a 240gr 40cal has about the same sectional density as a 45cal 300gr. A bonded 240gr Fury should handle that no problem.

 

[ElDiablo]

Imagine a 400gr 40cal lead conical hitting a elk. Remember the old 405Win? Well, a 300gr sabotless 40cal is nearly the same ballistically speaking. 2100fps should be possible if a 250gr is hitting 2300+. Also remember, a 240gr 40cal has about the same sectional density as a 45cal 300gr. A bonded 240gr Fury should handle that no problem.

Yes, the 405 win was a favorite of Roosevelts wasn’t it? Would a .40 with 250 gr Parkers work on a big bull elk at reasonable range with an ideal shot presentation? Probably. I think if that’s all a guy had it would be useable but not the ideal choice for elk. I suspect that on a hard-quartering or shoulder shot that bullet wouldn’t penetrate as you’d like it to.

 

[Mango1]

While Arizona might allow a .40 bullet to be used on elk, they're big, tough animals and I think that regardless of how well one can place shots with even premium bullets of .40 caliber, ethics should be considered. Many states feel a .45 cal is not enough.

There's a huge difference in what a gun/bullet does on paper at a range and what it does on a truely big game animal.

Totally agree MrTom. I've had many one shot elk kills with a 30-06 shooting a 165 grain Nosler Partition bullets which did the job nicely. The MV for those rounds were 2830 F/S. The 40 cal Paramount is shooting a 225/250 grain bullet at the 2700-2850 f/s, so the down range energy is similar. I do not think that States like NM have taken the high performance in-lines into account if that is the reason they do not allow them. More likely, the 40 paramount is capable of shooting at greater ranges which then becomes the ethical issue. However one could argue that it is the same issue with any long range rifles. I think the rational may be the same as not allowing scopes. If you are going to use a scoped muzzle loader that can shoot like a rifle then why even have a muzzle loader season for those types of muzzle loaders.

 

[GM54-120]

240-250gr bonded bullet at 2500+ fps will kill anything in NA on hooves. That is basically 35 Whelen level performance. Hard to imagine a 35 Whelen is not enough to ethically kill elk or even bison. Fury bullets are bonded jackets and a 250gr has a better SD than a 300gr 45cal. It will retain more energy and shoot flatter past 200 yards too.

The 240gr Fury has a claimed .350ish BC at 2500fps and a Paramount 40 should be able to get right around that speed or maybe more. One of the members here shot a huge bull with a 200gr Lehigh or Bloodline one year during a firearms hunt in Colorado. He wasn't even using a "super magnum" rifle, just a 45cal Knight.

 

[Ninering62]

Arizona.

Is it like with the smokeless muzzleloaders in states where it’s not legal to use them during “ muzzleloading season “ but you can use them during Gen gun season? So would a .40 be legal to use during Gen gun season & only illegal to use during muzzleloader season?

 

[ElDiablo]

Some good points but I think we are straying into apples and oranges territory. To me, a .40 250 gr cup and core bullet at 2800 fps is a recipe for disaster on a big bull elk. Not saying it wouldn’t work once, but it’s another universe from “Ideal.”

If you were to shoot a bonded or monometal bullet you would be much better off. As I’ve said many times before here and elsewhere, I’m a believer terminal performance on big elk.

 

[GM54-120]

To me, a .40 250 gr cup and core bullet at 2800 fps is a recipe for disaster on a big bull elk. Not saying it wouldn’t work once, but it’s another universe from “Ideal.”

So you are saying a 35 Whelen is far from ideal to take down an elk?

 

[ElDiablo]

Depends on the bullet.

 

[GM54-120]

Depends on the bullet.

Now you are moving the goal post because the bullet was recommended....240-250gr BONDED jacket. I bet box cars full of elk have been taken with the 35 Whelen using 225-250gr bullets. A good 40cal ML can easily match that FPS/FPE within 300 yards or so. I bet many have been killed ethically with a 358Win at closer ranges.

I just cant imagine how a Fury 40cal 240 or 250gr BONDED jacket bullet is going to be "another universe from “Ideal" if a 300gr 45cal at 2200fps is just fine. That is close to all a 405Win can muster.

 

[ElDiablo]

The OP isn’t currently shooting a bonded bullet. I agree, a bonded 250 .40 in a muzzleloader would be much better than a cup and core non-bonded. While comparisons to centerfire rifle chamberings can be useful and interesting, we are talking about a single shot rifle (muzzleloader). You can get away with a lot more when you have 2-5 quick follow-up shots at the ready. I’m not sure what the percentage is, but it’s very common for elk to take multiple shots from a centerfire rifle. Another real hunting consideration is the difficulty in spotting your shots with BP or BP subs. Yes, Blackhorn is less smoky and a brake may help but seeing an impact on game or calling a miss is a huge advantage for centerfires.

A lot of this (or any), ideal vs sufficient discussion, is heavily dependent on what range we are talking about. Is the OP shooting bugling bulls at 10 yards or late season bulls across a canyon at 400 yards?

 

[ElDiablo]

I think I’ll start a new thread on this elk question…. I’d look forward to your (and everyone’s) input GM54-120

 

[GM54-120]

I would not even consider the PB 225gr ELR for the task and with the 1-20 limitation of the Paramount it would be hard to recommend anything much heavier. Old school 40s are 1-16 or faster and so are the vast majority of 40cal SMLs. We know they will shoot a 400gr conical without a problem and 300gr jacketed without cracking a sweat.

 

[Mnt monkey]

I agree I appreciate the comments !

 

[mnoland30]

Looking at their website, I could not find a description of what the core of the bullet is made of. I'd assume pure lead. Their description of other tipped bullets says they penetrate deeper before expanding (sounds like Berger bullets). My experience with tipped, pure lead 400 gr. .45 bullets is that they go through the hide like a needle and then expand to over an inch. With a small entrance and no exit, there is no blood trail. I killed several elk with those bullets, but found that a 405 gr. cup and core flat nose bullet killed much faster, and usually exits. I purchased some Fury bullets, but haven't had a chance to try them yet.

 

[Groo74]

Where is it legal to use a 40cal for elk? I thought NM was 45cal minimum. Most PACNW are 50cal minimum.

Arizona

 

[1874sharpsshooter]

South Dakota says :
Elk - It is illegal to use firearms that produce less than 1,700 foot-
pounds of energy at the muzzle and that are smaller than .243 caliber
to hunt elk. Only soft point or expanding bullets are permitted.

I used a white s91 45 cal with eds 465 bullet for m cow I Had to push it with almost 100 gr of powder to get enough ft pounds at muzzle. She went all of 5 yards

 

[Mango1]

It’s legal in AZ

 

[white eagle]

I would never use the CVA ELR Powerbelt on anything other than paper
they are plated and the skirt breaks off way to easy
they are very accurate out of my 40, may use them on a coyote hunt but that is the limit for those
Yes Parker bullets are the bomb almost to pretty to shoot into a dirt bank
Sizing BTB is the way to go you can adjust as need for accuracy and accuracy trumps velocity hands down
good luck with your 40 cal they are a hoot