PBR (Point Blank Range) Scope Zero

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And I would add a dead center hold @ 100 might present the same challenge (less climatic conditions). Nothing replaces the actual shooting of the distances and making a slight POA change at the high/low end of two extremes.

Also those people with ballistic reticule scopes it is a very easy adjustment 'with practice and confirmation'. Still in my mind easier than dialing in adjustments while HUNTING.
explain how much easier than dialing! you still got to know range or won't work
 
In my experience tactical/target scopes and the adjustments inherant to them work great in very controlled conditions. Target, prairie dog hunting and in certain stands where either distance is limited or has well known markers. I also have always held the thought that a scope, regardless of quality, is like any other mechanical device and every adjustment is one adjustment closer to failure for that mechanism. Of course the same could be said for every shot/recoil is one step closer to failure.

But, almost all of my hunting rifles are set up for a 6“ or 8” kill zone MPBR, depending on the game I am chasing. I am good out to 350-400 with my centerfires and I know the dope on the ballistics beyond that if needed, but for the most part it has to be absolutely perfect hunting big game for me to stretch further. My longest big game shot was a range finder verified 560 yards on an antelope with absolutely no wind with a 257AI and a 100 grain nosier ballistic tip. I knew where I had to go with the hold over, bang, antelope walked two steps and fell over dead.

Twice on elk hunts I have been camp muscle where someone had to “dope” in their 250 yard shot and things went south from ther with misses or wounded game. Most of that was on the shooter, his original sight in and ammo, but it just brings in a potential error and equipment factor I personally don’t need. Now I also know guys that can dial anything in for the situation and range and be nuts on as well but for me I can set up my scopes on big game to be where I need for any shot I am comfortable with, without needing adjustment in the field.

Muzzleloading we are required here to shoot either open sights or 1x scopes so there is no adjusting in the field for me. I am confident to 150 or so with my peep set up, but again it has to be the right conditions and rest. Mostly I muzzleloader hunt at ranges of 100 yds or less.
 
Its natural to always get the most out of a gun. To be able to shoot long distances. For hunting maybe we need to increase our hunting skills and get closer or in a better location. If im not in my Trump Tower and am hunting I am always studying the situation. Where is the wind? Where are the animals likely to be? Is there a good hide? Is there a place to rest my gun for the shot? Clear any debris from under my feet. Can I improve my position.

All to often I see very poor hunting skills. Slamming doors, racking gun bolts, loud talking, flashlights swinging about, sitting in the wide open, smoking, playing games on a phone, listening to music, moving around, eating something with tinfoil, candy wrappers making noise. The list goes on. I try to impress on other hunters the deer don't want to die. How would you react if you were being hunted?
 
The thing I most appreciate about hunting, after the calm that descends over me once I am immersed in the forest, is that it taught a fairly impatient kid/young adult the importance of patience. Something that I sorely lacked until I started teaching myself to still hunt.

Without patience, there can be no successful hunting. Still hunting, or very slow stalking, requires the utmost in patience. It's my favorite way to hunt. It makes me SLOW DOWN. Something, that I have to remind myself to do every time I enter the forest/field to hunt.

Still hunting also requires that I leave all of the late-20th Century/early-21st Century fast communications technology either turned off, or not taken along with me at all.

In an ideal world, the one where I could afford anything I desired for muzzleloading hunting, I would only take afield a pair of Leica Geovid 8×56R range finding binoculars, an Iridium 9555 satellite phone, and a custom fabricated, flintlock, Rice barreled, .672 caliber Forsyth rifled, English Sporting Rifle that was equipped with both a tang-mounted ghost ring rear sight that was mated with a Blitzkrieg Components, AR-15, 8-36 threaded post, chevron front sight with white stripes & a tritium dot. Barrel would have Talley scope ring dovetail bases machined directly into the top flat of the barrel's octagonal breech. I would look for an older, 90's, Austrian/German 4x42mm fixed power scope that would be mounted in Talley, steel, Q-D lever rings.

Stock would have a 13" length of pull coupled with a Kick-eez Magnum, 1.375" thick recoil pad. GrovTec, flush mount, push button, sling swivel bases would be installed so that any type of modern shooting sling could be utilized.

Two, brass, Spartan Precision Equipment, Classic gunsmith adapters would be installed for use with any of Spartan's ultra-lightweight
bipods, tripods, quad, or quint support systems.

Such a rifle, in the hands of a competent rifleman, would be fully capable of 250 yard humane kills when using the riflescope. A 150 yard zero would probably be a good starting point, along with a 0.662" diameter ball, a 0.024" thick linen patch, and approximately 150 grains of ffg Swiss black powder.
 
I’ve always used point blank range to zero my optics. The only problem I see with it, is most of us don’t necessarily take the capabilities of that gun to shoot groups.

For a 3 moa deer rifle, that means you zero for no more than 1” high and use a max range of no more than maybe a half inch low so you can hit that 8” target with certainty. You might have 12” to play with on a perfect broadside shot but we generally assume about an 8” kill zone.

If you can learn to hold al title high or low and still hit that, then it’s all you do what you want.

But this probably makes a lot of guns 100 yard hunting rifles
 
one exception I make to my post above is for squirrel rifles. I like them dialed in so the trajectory does not rise above point of aim not even a 1/4 inch. Because on a steep angle shot up into the trees I can still be hitting an inch or so high. And I like to hit them in the head/neck if possible.
 
Ive read about this technique and immediately this thought comes to mind . For most 50 cal ml shooters a 4" group is pretty good at 200 yds .= 2moa
And whitetail vitals are on average10" top to bottom.=5moa
So dead center hold and 3" low poi at 200 yds plus 2"moa accuracy your now at 5 moa. If point of aim is perfect center mass ..
If using pbr method please account for point of impact when settling crosshairs on game and pulling trigger .
Pbr method doesn't mean0-200 yds aim center mass and shoot.
that is exactly what it means
if you have your rifle sighted in for a 6" kill zone
you have a max range where the bullet drops more than 3"
thus ending your pbr
so out to that range hold on and be assured you shot will kill
 
Now what I mean by center mass is center of the kill zone not center of animal
A shot there would and could be 3" in the wrong direction
 
I don't know about you guys, but I still get excited when I'm taking a shot. I've been known to calm down by pulling the trigger without cocking the gun. The simpler you can make it, the better it works. My buddy had a shot on a nice bull elk at 60 yards and figured he should aim low because he was so close. He lost that elk because he didn't understand the ballistics. At 60 yards, the bullet was less than 3" high. His shot hit below the kill zone.

Since my first post on this thread, I've purchased a 2nd focal plane ballistic reticle scope, but it doesn't work unless you're on the right magnification. Easy to screw up in the excitement of the moment. I missed an easy centerfire rifle shot at 250 yards because I forgot that.

In NM were now scopeless on muzzleloaders, so I'm trying out peep sights. The sight came with a 0.15 aperature, which I found to be too big. I ordered a .05, which was too small. I drilled it out to .0625 (1/16") and felt like Goldilocks. The globe sight came with a ballistic reticle, but my old eyes can't really see it.
 
If using peep or iron sights I always sight my rifle as point of aim point of impact. Another words if I sight my rifle with a 6 o’clock hold. That’s where I want my bullets to hit. We were taught that way in the Marines in 68. It worked then and still works today.
I don’t like aiming at 6 o’clock and then have the bullets hit 3-4” high to hit dead center bullseye.
 
Drop charts are awesome, I will say for "NEW PRB" hunters/shooters being aware barrel sizes are not uniform just because it is a .50 with a 1:38 twist you REALLY need to know that from CVA/Pendersoli/Traditions/Jukar/Thompson these barrels can go from .500 to .504 (greater percentages do run .501 to .504) so bigger/smaller ball thinner/thicker patch taking a day to shoot 5 shot groups at the respected distance your willing to shoot to. And actually seeing if .490 and .010 patch or a .495 ball and a .005 patch. I recently acquired a .45 Jukar its best .440 round and a .012 patch tightens it up to my 2 inch group or less acceptability. I got a .50 CVA Buckhorn it produces the results acceptable to me running a .495 and .010 patch you have got to play with loads, shoot your rifle/pistol. I had a fellow shooter ask Play with load? most slap in 100 to 150 grains shoot not knowing that 60-80 grains. larger/smaller ball, thicker/thinner patch will provide so much more accuracy at longer distances. Having a base line is awesome, do the work know that 90 grains, .490 round ball .005 patch will put you in the black 2 inch circle instead of 120 grains, ..490 round ball .010 patch puts me in the neighborhood of the black circle. For me the old guy that taught me used bullet drop charts, showed me how to use/read them He also stated the more you put into the load/shot will drastically increase your results, charts are awesome on what to expect (in their perfect world). Always remember never forget the disclaimer involved RESULTS NOT TYPICAL. means well you gotta work kid.
 
Sabotloader, I'm brand new to muzzleloading, but not to PBR, which I do with my 30.06, and plan to do with my new Accura Lr-X. All I've done with the Accura is play with ballistic runs from Hornady.com (Ballistic Calculators - Hornady Manufacturing, Inc) based on reported muzzle velocities from here and elsewhere on the web. I use Jack O'Connor's suggestion of no more than 4" rise above the line of sight" (O'Connor 1978 The Hunter's Shooting Guide. Outdoor Life Books) showing my age here.... so I play with the program by trying different "zero" ranges to get as close to that as possible. That's just the first step. Regardless of what value you use in your trajectory, the point is to get your trajectory as flat as possible with your rifle, with ranges you expect to shoot at, as you point out. Your points are well taken about not messing with the scope but using holdovers. With my .06, I can shoot to 400 yards w/o using any of the ballistic marks, by calculating the % up the body to shoot. By working all this out before hand, I find I'm much quicker and accurate in field (and tested at range before hand of course).

So, I work on the animal's anatomy and determine where I want the bullet to hit (center of vitals of course), and work this with the trajectory in a spreadsheet. Simple concept, but you have to figure height of animal (brisket to top of back @ leg, or trailing edge of leg). Again, Jack O'Connor has these in books, but Chuck Hawkes North American Animal Anatomy (thanks Chuck Hawkes). So I calculate an exact % of body to aim at based on that particular distance and trajectory, to hit center of vitals. Then I get more realistic and find a hold that works for most of the ranges. With my .06 I usually find a single hold that works well up to Maximum point blank range, then %'s to comes up from brisket for 350, and 400, for elk or oryx. so I have 3 holds in my head while I'm stalking. This way I don't have to guess or otherwise dither when I get the opportunity to shoot. I've already worked it out on paper and at the shooting range. I range rocks and trees as I stalk, never time to range an animal, unless it's pretty far away. If I stop somewhere on trail or saddle, then I range places around me.

I have attached a spreadsheet I've started for a pronghorn hunt so you can see my approach, which is slight extension of what you've already done. I used O'Connor's 4" value as a start. But I have yet to test to find my load and what I'll actually use. That is why you won't see a column next to the estimated trajectories with a "common sense" holds. I need to punch holes in paper at the different ranges to finish this up. However, this approach has worked well for me on elk and oryx center-fire hunts. It's just trajectories and groups I can get at the different distances.

I should also mention that like O'Connor, did, I hunt in the West. I may walk 5 or 6 miles in a day for elk, at least for another year or two I hope. If I new my range was limited to 200 or 300 yards, I wouldn't maximize my point blank range, but I'd maximize the flatness of trajectory for that situation.

In either case, I applaud you for working and thinking about your trajectories and checking them on the range. I think it's an important and ethical thing to do, besides interesting, and it has given me the information and ability to very quickly acquire target and shoot without guessing, or minimizing the error around mistakes in guessing range to be more accurate.

I hope my Accura shoots as flat as your's appears to!
 

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  • Pronghorn Vitals_aimpoints.xlsx
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Sabotloader, I'm brand new to muzzleloading, but not to PBR, which I do with my 30.06, and plan to do with my new Accura Lr-X. All I've done with the Accura is play with ballistic runs from Hornady.com (Ballistic Calculators - Hornady Manufacturing, Inc) based on reported muzzle velocities from here and elsewhere on the web. I use Jack O'Connor's suggestion of no more than 4" rise above the line of sight" (O'Connor 1978 The Hunter's Shooting Guide. Outdoor Life Books) showing my age here.... so I play with the program by trying different "zero" ranges to get as close to that as possible. That's just the first step. Regardless of what value you use in your trajectory, the point is to get your trajectory as flat as possible with your rifle, with ranges you expect to shoot at, as you point out. Your points are well taken about not messing with the scope but using holdovers. With my .06, I can shoot to 400 yards w/o using any of the ballistic marks, by calculating the % up the body to shoot. By working all this out before hand, I find I'm much quicker and accurate in field (and tested at range before hand of course).

So, I work on the animal's anatomy and determine where I want the bullet to hit (center of vitals of course), and work this with the trajectory in a spreadsheet. Simple concept, but you have to figure height of animal (brisket to top of back @ leg, or trailing edge of leg). Again, Jack O'Connor has these in books, but Chuck Hawkes North American Animal Anatomy (thanks Chuck Hawkes). So I calculate an exact % of body to aim at based on that particular distance and trajectory, to hit center of vitals. Then I get more realistic and find a hold that works for most of the ranges. With my .06 I usually find a single hold that works well up to Maximum point blank range, then %'s to comes up from brisket for 350, and 400, for elk or oryx. so I have 3 holds in my head while I'm stalking. This way I don't have to guess or otherwise dither when I get the opportunity to shoot. I've already worked it out on paper and at the shooting range. I range rocks and trees as I stalk, never time to range an animal, unless it's pretty far away. If I stop somewhere on trail or saddle, then I range places around me.

I have attached a spreadsheet I've started for a pronghorn hunt so you can see my approach, which is slight extension of what you've already done. I used O'Connor's 4" value as a start. But I have yet to test to find my load and what I'll actually use. That is why you won't see a column next to the estimated trajectories with a "common sense" holds. I need to punch holes in paper at the different ranges to finish this up. However, this approach has worked well for me on elk and oryx center-fire hunts. It's just trajectories and groups I can get at the different distances.

I should also mention that like O'Connor, did, I hunt in the West. I may walk 5 or 6 miles in a day for elk, at least for another year or two I hope. If I new my range was limited to 200 or 300 yards, I wouldn't maximize my point blank range, but I'd maximize the flatness of trajectory for that situation.

In either case, I applaud you for working and thinking about your trajectories and checking them on the range. I think it's an important and ethical thing to do, besides interesting, and it has given me the information and ability to very quickly acquire target and shoot without guessing, or minimizing the error around mistakes in guessing range to be more accurate.

I hope my Accura shoots as flat as your's appears to!
Not a thing wrong with sabots, one of my pets for buckhorn mag in a sabot is Thompson Centers Cheap Shot 240 grain lead hollow point and 80 grains pyrodex.
 
I generally have a pbr for every rifle. For the .45 & .50 that shoot I want a point blank range of 100 yards. For .32s and .36s that range is about 35 to 40 yards.
 
I am a big fan of MPBR. Used it for years on all my centerfires. I am still having too much fun shooting old stores of random powder and bullets. When I settle on a load, I'll be doing the math for sure.
 
I worked with a camera man once who filmed hunting shows. The bow hunters on TV often have only 1 camera so they film the animal then do all the B role play by play after the shot.

I have not seen the video you are talking about, but some things filmed may not be how it really happened.
 
Back to the topic. Use whatever method you want but know where your bullet will hit. You have to know the difference between sight and impact for everything that is not at the range you sighted.

I find it far easier to sight in for PBR then use intelligent aiming. I have seen the Dial-a-range people miss easy shots on TV too many times.

I want to know where the bullet will hit. I also like the scopes with 2 MOA lines for elevation and windage.

I knew my 270 sighted in at 245 would hit 5 moa low at 450. Moved up 2.5 lines in about a second.

Few scopes in prices I am willing to pay track well enough for me to trust. Make sure if you are dialing that your scope really hits where you dial AND returns to 0 when taken back to 0.

Wind is waaaay harder. How fast? What angle? Is it consistent?
 
A friend and I one day we're hunting exotic deer in the middle of Texas out on giant Ranch we had three or four animals to take and plenty of time to take them it was my friend's Ranch and for the most part he had the animals picked out that he wanted to take and he knew the parts of the ranch that they hung out in when we got into the first area we were looking for a big red stag that was old he showed me a picture of it we were in a high rack truck we came over a little Bluff and looked into a big draw and there was that red stag with some other red stag about 450 yards away the driver stopped, my friend picked up his rangefinder I picked up my rifle needless to say before he could range and start the clicking process I had the red stag on the ground wasn't no big deal we were good friends by the time we got to the third animal it was a big deal I handed him my rifle told him what my maximum Point Blank ranges were and quickly gave him a little advice on how to use the reticle,, he shot the last two animals we harvested with my rifle,,,when it came down to the moment those little split seconds of just being able to aim and shoot made a lot of difference,,, over the years I did a lot of clicking and I was around a lot of people that you were just good Shooters and even with just a simple Crosshair would hold,, I had another old friend in the rifle business well advanced in years and a good shooter told me one day the more you move that scope,, more chances of you having a problem with that scope he said young man remember that leave your scope alone I took that information and advice to Heart I'm convinced the best reticle-scope and setup for muzzleloading in particular is maximum Point Blank Range learn your load and shoot your load,, get a scope with a center cross hair or Dot and two to three other lines,,, learn to adjust the center dot specifically to your load you will never need to know whether your scope is a quarter minute or a clicks by Mills it really won't matter other than when you sight the gun in. If you're going to remain a scope Clicker and there's a really big buck out there I would try yelling out there for him to hold on for a few moments and wait while you get him ranged and the scope situated,, I'm just kidding all of you Scope Clickers ...
 
I see the archers on TV ranging a deer quit often. Really??? My first thought is they aren't familiar with their bow like they need to be. But mostly they are trying to sell a range finder.

Am I wrong thinking that a practiced archer has no use for a rangefinder. Im thinking any practiced archer can determine the distance to a target accurately enough so they will not miss. Excluding the deer jumping the string.

Bowhunting from a stand that ive hunted before ive ranged everthing a 1000 times and know the ranges by heart. But if im in a new stand or a buddies stand, i take my rangefinder and check everything. In that second when you get to take the shot it sure helps to already know that distance without having to guess. But the more i do it the better i get at guesstimating the distances. Im also doing it for ML hunting but i dont range as many things, just enough to establish a perimeter?
Snapbang I see them ranging deer too and not sure why. Archery hunting is far more critical than muzzleloader hunting as far as range goes. Even with today's fast compounds and crossbows. I'm from the same mold as michiganmuzzy. When I get into a new stand I range trees all around my stand from up close to as far out as I will shoot so I know exactly how far an animal will be BEFORE it gets there not WHEN its there. Sometimes the animals are moving so quickly through my shooting lanes that I have to know before hand. That gives me enough time to get drawn, try to stop him, and let it fly.
This method has worked well for me for many years and a rangefinder is much easier than stepping distances off before the season. One deer hunt in Texas I was in a stand and did my usual ranging of trees. I heard some deer snorting up the hill from me and a few minutes later watched a bobcat coming down off the ridge and I slowly stood up with my bow. When he walked behind a tree I ranged at 35 yards I drew the bow and he caught my movement at the very end of my draw and turned his head in my direction. I remember thinking to myself "you're too late" and released and caught him right behind the shoulder. He screamed and hollered for and rolled around for a couple seconds and lay still. I have him mounted on a false stone on the wall in my man cave.
 
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This is a good conversation from a lot of people with good experience. I am still trying to find out what I am going to do with my new muzzy…this is the first one ive ever had a scope on.
 
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