Projectiles - Sabots vs Powerbelts

[RDReed]

So I'm not looking to start a Ford vs Chevy debate here, really asking more about practical use.

I am just getting back into muzzleloading and in my past I always used powerbelts for their simplicity but now that I am doing more research it seems that a lot of people have great success with sabots so I'm considering both options. I mentioned this to a buddy of mine and he swears up and down that sabots are too much of a hassle and that after 1 or 2 shots you won't be able to load another one without cleaning. I'm aware that there are different sized and designed sabots out there and it seems like there should be a bullet/sabot combination that loads just as well as a powerbelt.

So what does the forum say?

 

[GM54-120]

I can load 30 sabots of more without cleaning so i cant imagine how anyone cant load 3. That is a massive myth passed on by the load recommendations listed in CVA manuals because they want you to buy Powerbelts for WAY more money. CVA and Powerbelt are owned by the same parent company so of course they are not gunna tell you the truth. Its not like the skirt on the PBs are some magical mystery plastic that only they can make.

I have regularly shot sabots well over 2200fps and never seen the mythical problem with sabots. Dont blow a sabot and give your barrel ample time to cool between shots. You wont get anymore fouling than any other projectile that has plastic touching the bore. In the typical deer hunting temps and only a few shots it simply is not gunna happen. PURE BOVINE FECES.

 

[RDReed]

I can load 30 sabots of more without cleaning so i cant imagine how anyone cant load 3. That is a massive myth passed on by the load recommendations listed in CVA manuals because they want you to buy Powerbelts for WAY more money. CVA and Powerbelt are owned by the same parent company so of course they are not gunna tell you the truth. Its not like the skirt on the PBs are some magical mystery plastic that only they can make.

I have regularly shot sabots well over 2200fps and never seen the mythical problem with sabots. Dont blow a sabot and give your barrel ample time to cool between shots. You wont get anymore fouling than any other projectile that has plastic touching the bore. In the typical deer hunting temps and only a few shots it simply is not gunna happen. PURE BOVINE FECES.

Thank you for confirming what I had already thought. H swears he's speaking from experience but I think it's all in his head.

 

[GM54-120]

Most people who have issues with sabots are simply not aware that bore sizes and sabot sizes vary. Choose the right sabot for your bore. Make sure you start with a bore free of solvents/grease/ect before you ever fire that first shot. Them puppies dont ship from overseas in just bare metal. Whatever it is they use is a pain to remove if shot before a intense cleaning. Avoid Teflon additives in the bore. They do nothing to prevent corrosion but they do have a more noticeable negative effect with some powders. Real synthetics and mineral oil based lubes like Montana Extreme Bore Conditioner are the least problematic.

 

[sabotloader]

So I'm not looking to start a Ford vs Chevy debate here, really asking more about practical use.

I am just getting back into muzzleloading and in my past I always used powerbelts for their simplicity but now that I am doing more research it seems that a lot of people have great success with sabots so I'm considering both options.

I have shot Power Belts and they are easy and accurate - but really that is all the prompts I could supply for the bullets. I have not shot the newer PowerBelts available today and at this point I can not say that I any incentive or reason to do so.

I have on the other hand, really kept MMP Sabots company busy producing new sabots. I find no real problems at all shooting the modern day polymer sabots. They are far ahead of the older generation of sabots.

I mentioned this to a buddy of mine and he swears up and down that sabots are too much of a hassle and that after 1 or 2 shots you won't be able to load another one without cleaning.

You do not say what powder you are shooting or even which powder your friend may have been shooting, but, If you choose to shoot Triple Seven powder ignited with a 209 primer - there is a valid case that after shooting a few rounds that running a damp is necessary to remove the T7 'crud ring. Even that problem can often be reduced by using compatible cleaning products in the bore. If you choose to shoot BH-209 this problem will not exist.

I do not use a lot of BH because of the cost of the powder per 10 ounce bottle. T7 works very well for me in most applications.

I'm aware that there are different sized and designed sabots out there and it seems like there should be a bullet/sabot combination that loads just as well as a powerbelt.

One thing that make PowerBelts so easy to load is most they (the actual bullet) is under sized for the bore. They can do this as the bullet make is so soft that pressure built from the igniting powder will obturate the bullet to fit the bore. Sabots should be some what tighter than PowerBelts.

So what does the forum say?

Today, at this point there really isn't a good reason to for me to switch to PowerBelts. There are just to many bullets with superior 'Terminal Ballistic's' on the market.

 

[RDReed]

I have shot Power Belts and they are easy and accurate - but really that is all the prompts I could supply for the bullets. I have not shot the newer PowerBelts available today and at this point I can not say that I any incentive or reason to do so.

I have on the other hand, really kept MMP Sabots company busy producing new sabots. I find no real problems at all shooting the modern day polymer sabots. They are far ahead of the older generation of sabots.



You do not say what powder you are shooting or even which powder your friend may have been shooting, but, If you choose to shoot Triple Seven powder ignited with a 209 primer - there is a valid case that after shooting a few rounds that running a damp is necessary to remove the T7 'crud ring. Even that problem can often be reduced by using compatible cleaning products in the bore. If you choose to shoot BH-209 this problem will not exist.

I do not use a lot of BH because of the cost of the powder per 10 ounce bottle. T7 works very well for me in most applications.



One thing that make PowerBelts so easy to load is most they (the actual bullet) is under sized for the bore. They can do this as the bullet make is so soft that pressure built from the igniting powder will obturate the bullet to fit the bore. Sabots should be some what tighter than PowerBelts.



Today, at this point there really isn't a good reason to for me to switch to PowerBelts. There are just to many bullets with superior 'Terminal Ballistic's' on the market.

He shoots the white hot pellets with a 245 grain powerbelt and a 209 primer in a CVA Accura MR that he's had for a few years.

I just purchased a CVA Accura MR for myself (supposed to be delivered today) but have not settled on a powder yet, hoping to try the BH after reading so many good things about it but need to see if I can find it locally. In the past I used the 777 pellets with no issue but wouldn't mind the extra performance and cleanliness of the BH.

As you can tell I am also looking at projectile options.

 

[GM54-120]

He shoots the white hot pellets with a 245 grain powerbelt and a 209 primer in a CVA Accura MR that he's had for a few years.

Sounds like the text book CVA load recommendation and in reality one of the worst when price vs performance is figured in. WhiteHots cost you more per shot than BH209 even at full retail pricing. You wont even need to use a 100grV equivalent of BH209 to match that speed with a heavier bullet. The BC is terrible for that Powerbelt. Just about any 45cal 250gr bullet can easily match or beat it for a fraction of the price.

If you want to shoot a full bore 50cal 250gr i would suggest looking at Thors. All copper and at least worth the $1.50+ per shot.
https://www.muzzle-loaders.com/bullets/thor-bullets-muzzleloader-conical-250-grain.html

 

[Neumonic]

Sabot and bullet combo I like and have great results with accuracy with Barnes TE-Z 250 grain and their MZ 250 offerings, not cheap but consistent and reliable for putting animals down quickly.

this deer season I am going to try Harvester Scorpion in 260 grain, they are like $14 for a pack of 30 with sabots and have been the most accurate combo out of both my ML’ers regardless of using pellets or BH powder.

Enjoy your new Muzzleloader and report back with what you experiment with and how everything works out.

Lot’s of great info here and many good combos out there, figure out your bore size and what it likes and you should have good results from many different powders and bullet sabot combos.

 

[JIMYJAC]

After testing many loads in my Accura mr i settled on a 250gr Hornady monoflex with ez sabot and 90gr BH. Accurate,deadly. Another load i enjoy that does a good job is a 260gr PT Gold,ez sabot and 90gr BH. Like Neumonic said theres lots of good combos. Enjoy ,safe shooting!

 

[RDReed]

After testing many loads in my Accura mr i settled on a 250gr Hornady monoflex with ez sabot and 90gr BH. Accurate,deadly. Another load i enjoy that does a good job is a 260gr PT Gold,ez sabot and 90gr BH. Like Neumonic said theres lots of good combos. Enjoy ,safe shooting!

Thanks for the info. Another forum member recommended I try the hornady 265 grain ftx and 110 grains of BH. Sounds like I have a few things to try out.

 

[GM54-120]

Harvester offers a new White Lightning bullet that is also 44cal Im not a fan of 50x44 but it works for some. The new Harvester will probably be cheaper than the 265gr FTX in bulk 50 packs. You will want to pair it with either the 50x44 green Crushrib (tighter bores) or the 50x44 EZ-Load sabot (for typical bores). Harvester will send sample of the sabots if you want to try them and see what fits best first.
https://www.harvestermuzzleloading....85-50-cal-sabot-300-gr-430-polymer-tip-bullet

https://www.harvestermuzzleloading....-cal-crushed-rib-sabot-for-429-430-cal-bullethttps://www.harvestermuzzleloading....s/item/51-50-cal-sabot-for-429-430-cal-bullet

 

[GM54-120]

To be honest though i would just grab some cheap 44 300gr XTPs if you want to try a 44cal. Even some of the Speers if you want something lighter weight. If you can get either one to shoot they will hammer deer and the BC of the 44 300gr XTP is not all that bad. Its not like the MR is meant to be a long range rig anyway.

A box of 50 XTPs is under $20 plus shipping. Grafs sells them and sells Harvester sabots cheaper than you will find them anywhere else.
https://www.grafs.com/catalog/product/productId/6532
Im betting the EZ-Load sabot will be fine in the MR
https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/5479https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/5464

 

[RDReed]

Harvester offers a new White Lightning bullet that is also 44cal Im not a fan of 50x44 but it works for some. The new Harvester will probably be cheaper than the 265gr FTX in bulk 50 packs. You will want to pair it with either the 50x44 green Crushrib (tighter bores) or the 50x44 EZ-Load sabot (for typical bores). Harvester will send sample of the sabots if you want to try them and see what fits best first.
https://www.harvestermuzzleloading....85-50-cal-sabot-300-gr-430-polymer-tip-bullet

https://www.harvestermuzzleloading....-cal-crushed-rib-sabot-for-429-430-cal-bullethttps://www.harvestermuzzleloading....s/item/51-50-cal-sabot-for-429-430-cal-bullet

Thanks for the info. Can I ask why you don't like the 44? Seems like a minute difference between 44/45.

 

[GM54-120]

IMO its easier to get 50x45 to shoot. The more plastic you have between bullet and bore the weaker the sabot. The only sabots i "drilled" have been using bullets smaller than 45cal in a 50cal ML. They literally blew the center out of the sabot and the rest was a mangled mess. If you ever blow a sabot its a good idea to scrub the snot out of the bore later. Its about the only time you will get bad plastic fouling.

 

[sabotloader]

It has always been my experience the closer to bore size the bullet is - the better the accuracy.

As GM54-120 has suggested there really are some good inexpensive bullets on the market, especially for uses like initial sight in, target practice, and plinking. Even them they will even do a decent job of Harvesting an animal.

A couple of bullets I would suggest are the offerings from Lehigh Defense. If you are a deer hunter and want a bullet with great 'Terminal Ballistics' take a look at the .451-230gr. CF-HP. It is extremely accurate and has really good ballistics.

If you are after elk then the .452-265CF-HP is a tremendous bullet.

These bullets do not work in the conventional expanding manner. They use a feature called 'Controlled Fracture' to inflict the internal damage on the organs. I think the original operating feature came from Germany.

All I can tell you is they work 'dang good'

 

[RDReed]

To be honest though i would just grab some cheap 44 300gr XTPs if you want to try a 44cal. Even some of the Speers if you want something lighter weight. If you can get either one to shoot they will hammer deer and the BC of the 44 300gr XTP is not all that bad. Its not like the MR is meant to be a long range rig anyway.

A box of 50 XTPs is under $20 plus shipping. Grafs sells them and sells Harvester sabots cheaper than you will find them anywhere else.
https://www.grafs.com/catalog/product/productId/6532
Im betting the EZ-Load sabot will be fine in the MR
https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/5479https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/5464

The price per round on these is actually less than the 300 grain option you recommended above. Think they are worth trying or too light?
https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/20552

It has always been my experience the closer to bore size the bullet is - the better the accuracy.

As GM54-120 has suggested there really are some good inexpensive bullets on the market, especially for uses like initial sight in, target practice, and plinking. Even them they will even do a decent job of Harvesting an animal.

A couple of bullets I would suggest are the offerings from Lehigh Defense. If you are a deer hunter and want a bullet with great 'Terminal Ballistics' take a look at the .451-230gr. CF-HP. It is extremely accurate and has really good ballistics.

If you are after elk then the .452-265CF-HP is a tremendous bullet.

These bullets do not work in the conventional expanding manner. They use a feature called 'Controlled Fracture' to inflict the internal damage on the organs. I think the original operating feature came from Germany.

All I can tell you is they work 'dang good'

Thank you for the info and the "real world" results.

 

[MSalyards]

I shoot the Speer Deep Curl .452 in a black crush rib Harvester in 300 gr. I push it with 77 w gr of BH209 and a win 209 primer. Not expensive shoots good and kills dead! About $16.00 a box and if you buy $49.00 thru Midway its usually free shipping. My last 5lb jug of BH209 was way under $250.00 shipped.

 

[sabotloader]

It is really hard to beat the Deep Curl when it comes to regular bullets. Since the copper outside is bonded to the lead it really doesn't come apart as many other copper/lead bullets can do.

Since Nosler quit making the Partition bullets in ML sizes and I had not found the Lehigh's I would certainly be shooting the Deep Curl

 

[01Foreman400]

Several years ago I switched from 295 gr. HP Powerbelts and 777 pellets to Barnes 250 gr. T-EZ (sabot replaced with the harvester crush rib sabot) and Blackhorn 209. That was the best decision I’ve made regarding my muzzleloader. The Barnes aren’t cheap but I also don’t shoot it a lot either so a pack of 24 bullets will last me a while. With that being said a PB vs a saboted bullet makes no difference in loading multiple rounds without cleaning in my experience. The propellent you’re using plays a much bigger roll. With the Harvester crush rib loading is super easy in my Omega and it is very accurate.

 

[rangerod]

The Deep Curl and the Tez bullets are both great bullets. Wouldn't hesitate the least to hunt with either. As for 44 vs 45 I've generally found the 45 to be more accurate. I have however shot some pretty good groups with the 44's.