Rethinking Elk Loads

[LarryBud]

We should have Colorado MZ Tags this year. Fingers crossed on the draw.

Currently, I have three rifles set up to shoot Thor 300's. I just left them unscoped and sighted in from two years ago. I also have a good supply of Thors which is an investment. I should also say that last time the Thor 300 got the job done but it was a clear 20 yard broadside shot. Two holes and passing through the vitals. The bull still ran 150-200 yards and I found no blood the whole way. We found him stone dead in a clearing which was very fortunate because there aren't many in my hunting grounds.

I keep thinking I may be better off with some no excuse 490's. Where we hunt its thick and shots over 40 - 50 yards would almost never happen. It's very likely that a shot through some light brush will be the only option. We were after them with archery equipment last year and had many such opportunities.

I also hear of people intentionally shooting a shoulder shot to anchor the animal. Any experience with this? I do fear losing one in the very thick brush.

I guess I'm open to thoughts and suggestions. I wish to have everything set up gun wise prior to summer weather, so now is the time to work it out.

Thanks,

LB

 

[Idaholewis]

This is the bullet i used this Year on my Elk hunt, I had an exact Scenario you mention happen on my Cow only Elk hunt, The Elk was Standing in some Buck Brush, it wasn’t really thick and i could see body through it, But i knew the Bullet could possibly hit some of it. It was a Clear view to the Elk, except that Small amount it was Standing in. I felt Confident my Bullet would get the Job done, in which it did. I am not sure if I clipped any of the Brush or not? My bullet hit the Elk where i was Aiming

This is the Bullet, From a Mold i had made at Accurate Bullet molds #50-488
It is the Bullet on the Right, Weighs in at 485 Grains with my 1-40 Alloy. Bullet on the Left is my Copy of the Bullshop 460 Grain, Both Bullets shoot STELLAR out of my 1:28 Twist Green Mountain LRH Barrel. Notice the Lube Grooves on the 485 are “inset” Vs “Exterior Bands” on the Left? I prefer the “Inset” Grooves.

 

[sabotloader]

Larry, I have shot them, the Thors, and know there are a lot of people shooting and liking them, but I a forum friend of mine in Oregon had really poor luck with them. Also, he was using the lighter Thor.

Here in Idaho, we are required to use a full conical also, but we have an additional requirement that the bullet be "LEAD" - I hate lead for a variety of reasons, but they do work.

I use the .503-460 MTNex from Bull Shop.

They come lubed with Bullshop Dan's NASA lube which I think is a really great lube. Another advantage is Dan will size them to your needs

His web site is a little hard to navigate - well for me it is, but he can be found on the net. He is not much on technology so his wife does all of the communicating...

Another one time thing you might consider for the Colorado hunt is the Power Belt. I dislike them also but the key to shooting lead is to shoot a heavy bullet. Soft lead bullets can really come apart easily - the more weight they carry the better chance they will stay together. If you were to go with the PB - I would suggest the 348 grain bullet as the lightest you might use. The one GOOD thing with the Power Belt - there are easy! easy to load - easy to shoot and the really accurate!

Good luck on the drawing!

 

[LarryBud]

Thanks guys,

I'm just thinking heavier will be better now that I know the terrain.

Power Belts are probably off the table as going from a 300 which will flower to to a 348 which will squish does not appeal much to me.

I've had quite of bit of experience with 460s but have never made the next step up to larger bullets. Guess I buy some and have options. I wish I could shoot Ed's lead from the my 45 but I need at least a 50 Cal in CO.

 

[nocomike]

I hunt Colorado as well and have killed 2 bulls with 460g bullets. One was a Bull Shop bullet and one was a No Excuses. Both were very quick kills. One bull (a big 6x6) did not produce an exit but pretty much died on the spot; the other (rag horn) went maybe 30 yards and did have an exit. I also saw a third bull (I called it in for a buddy) take a No Excuses 460g at 100 yards and it went 70 yards with a less than optimal hit. It exited as well. I have never used Thor bullets but have heard of a few questionable instances that lead me to suspect they may not always expand. Good luck with the draw. Maybe I should mention both my bulls were less than 70 yards.

 

[LarryBud]

Great Fedback NOCO.

I’m leaning heavily toward a change to big lead. Wonder if 490 is overkill. One gun is an MK 85 and that’s a lot of recoil on a little gun.

 

[dbowling]

You might give the 600 gr No Excuses a try they shoot good in a couple of my guns, the distance your shooting drop wouldn't be a whole lot different then 460-490 gr conicals.. unless you don't want to mess with that heavy a bullet, but would say it would plow its way from one end of a Elk to the other.
Don't think either would be overkill, for years in Indiana we used 600-700 gr lead slugs out of shotguns on Whitetails before saboted slugs and now rifles became legal.

 

[talon_dfa]

Yes, If all shots are expected to be close, then trajectory is unimportant and energy and cutting biggest path is everything... so go heavy. I have never had an elk show any reaction to a 7mm 160 grain bullet (lots of energy; low cross section, so most energy lost on other side of elk)... But none have gone more than 30 yards, one dropped on 2nd shot (first shot was double lung), but no initial reaction at all.
Elk shot at 30 yards with 290 grain Barnes, dropped, tried to get up but couldn't (same with mule deer buck at 20 yards with 250 grain bullet).
But elk generally continue doing what they were doing before being shot. If they are standing, they stand. If they were moving, they keep moving (note I said generally, not always)... No guarantee even heaviest bullets will stop running elk in it's track unless spine or head shot (and nobody has any business taking head shot on running elk).
Shooting through the shoulder will slow them down for sure, but may not stop them. I always hesitate to ruin the meat, but would do so if faced with a tough recovery problem (like preventing elk from going to private land or down steep canyon).
For those that can only shoot lead, I understand the reasoning for the rule, but knowing what we know about lead, we should have alternatives if we choose. I wish I could get heavier all copper bullets, but hate to think about how expensive they would be.

 

[mnoland30]

With a range finder, and tang sights or ballistic reticles, trajectory doesn't matter as much. Go heavy. I've been shooting 400 or 405 grain saboted bullets in my .50 caliber. I've tried all kinds of bullets, and in my opinion, most saboted bullets aren't heavy enough for elk at longer range. I consider 400 gr. the minimum with a .45 caliber bullet. With the hardcast 400 grain, I shot a cow at 70 yards this year and it went in the right front shoulder and out the left rear ham. Great penetration, but no expansion, and she went about 200 yards. Fortunately, the ground was wet enough to track since there was no blood trail. With the soft 405 gr hollow points, I've had 3 DRT shots and one that went 40 yards. Three of those shots were at 220 yards. I sight in at 150 meters and am only 8-10 inches low at 200 m.

 

[idahoron]

I also hear of people intentionally shooting a shoulder shot to anchor the animal. Any experience with this? I do fear losing one in the very thick brush.

I guess I'm open to thoughts and suggestions. I wish to have everything set up gun wise prior to summer weather, so now is the time to work it out.

Thanks,

LB

I was on an elk hunt in 2013 for cows. I was hunting right against private land. The land owners would not allow anyone to enter to retrieve game. It was not going to happen.
I knew that I need to anchor the animal ASAP. I have used my paper patched 460 gr bullets for many years and knew they would stand up to bones on big mile deer but I had not tested them on elk. Those bullets are hardened to about 7 BHN give or take. I had never found a bullet in an animal ever. All the guys I had given or sold them to had never found a bullet.
So when I looked at the ridge line and saw a cow elk, the first one I saw in 13 days of hunting I went after her. The top of the ridge was flat and no cover. I had one piece of brush in front of me that allowed me cover. I got behind it and called. When she came in she was at 60 yards quartering to me. I held for the point of the shoulder and sent it.

At the hit the elk went down. Then she got back up and tried to go. She made it 20 yards and piled up. The shoulder was blown up. The bullet was recovered in the flank it weighed 288 grains.

I really didn't have a lot of options. I needed to get her down asap. The bullet shed a lot of weight going through the shoulder like it did. It crushed the shoulder and traveled through about 5 foot of elk before it stopped.
The elk had been shot before.

I never found evidence of what it was but what is clear is the person that shot it probably felt confident in the shot.
I can't make a blanket statement that taking a shoulder shot will anchor a elk every time. There are several factors. Like bullet hardness, and shot placement. Some would think that my shot was high. But I centered the shoulder bone perfectly. Another factor is range, and velocity.
What I do know is a very soft bullet like the Hornady 385 hollow point has no business being shot at elk. On the same token the power belt bullets are not to be trusted. I have seen them fail to penetrate. One time I was hunting and watching a herd of elk from about 3 miles away. A guy in a combine jumped out of the cab and shot at a herd of elk. Nothing dropped and the farmer kept going. I watched the herd run and about a mile later one laid down. I went to it and the elk jumped up and took off running. I shot it and it went down. I found the bullet the farmer shot in the hips. None of the bones were broken. Had it been a big elk it might not have bedded down and I would not have went after it. It might have survived the hip shot.

If you want to make bullets your self I would recommend looking into bullet hardness. You can actually tune your groups with the lead hardness. Plus a slightly harder bullet will perform better on large game. I have not hunted with the No Excuse bullets but I have shot them. They seem to be pretty accurate. I have even paper patched them and had good groups with them. But they are soft, soft. The quality control on them is lacking. I have seen 10 grains difference in a package of bullets. That is literally no QC.
I have never shot any Bull Shop bullets. I don't know anything about them. I do know that Lew has and he seems to think that they are harder than pure. For that reason I would look at them first and No Excuse second.

 

[GM54-120]

With a range finder, and tang sights or ballistic reticles, trajectory doesn't matter as much. Go heavy. I've been shooting 400 or 405 grain saboted bullets in my .50 caliber. I've tried all kinds of bullets, and in my opinion, most saboted bullets aren't heavy enough for elk at longer range. I consider 400 gr. the minimum with a .45 caliber bullet. With the hardcast 400 grain, I shot a cow at 70 yards this year and it went in the right front shoulder and out the left rear ham. Great penetration, but no expansion, and she went about 200 yards. Fortunately, the ground was wet enough to track since there was no blood trail. With the soft 405 gr hollow points, I've had 3 DRT shots and one that went 40 yards. Three of those shots were at 220 yards. I sight in at 150 meters and am only 8-10 inches low at 200 m.

Thats great but sabots are illegal during the MZ seasons. Full bore projectiles are required in Colorado. Who offers 405gr HPs in .458? Ive only seen soft points in that weight and the BC is pitiful if you need something for long range.

 

[Muley Hunter]

Good grief. Elk aren't hard to kill. Here's a moose Killed with a flintlock .54 PRB. 90gr of Swiss at 90 yds. Shot through both lungs.

 

[idahoron]

If you honestly think elk are not hard to kill you are delusional.
Now moose are not hard to kill. Not hard at all. About half the time they don't run from people and after they are hit they just stand there.

 

[Muley Hunter]

You can call in an elk within 20ft. How is that hard? I can show the same dead elk that were shot with a PRB. A hole in both lungs kills anything. You should know that.

 

[idahoron]

Not every elk calls into 20 feet. If you believe that elk year round can be called into 20 foot. Then you are the kind of guy tgat shoots with your PRB then don't go look unless tgey drop in sight.

 

[MSalyards]

I shot my first elk at 10 yards , 5 times with a 41 mag. Long story but 3 went thru the lungs, 2 in the neck not hitting bone. Followed it over 2 miles before it died. It coughed blood like I had never seen. 210 gr hp lead. They can travel!

 

[Muley Hunter]

I don't call at all Ron. I'm a still hunter and sneak in close. I just don't find elk very hard to hunt. A mature muley buck is much harder and a bear is way harder when not called, hounds, and bait are used.

If you want to knock an elk off it's feet and have it stay there a PRB is not the hot tip. However, the PRB will kill it just fine. Tracking is part of hunting. A running elk is not hard to track. It's like tracking a running horse. Elk are tough and run when hit with big magnum CF guns. That doesn't mean they're hard to kill. Just hard to knock down. A hole in both lungs.......dead elk.

 

[idahoron]

Well we are going to have to agree to disagree. I have killed close to 30 head of elk and I can honestly say that they are not the push overs you claim that they are. If you want to lead people to believe that fine its your prerogative to give false info, and you are.
But elk are tough strong animals. They don't just fall over when you hit them your pea shooter. You saying killing a big mule deer is harder is getting away from the topic. A mature mule deer is not as physically tough as a mature elk. It takes less to knock them down. You confusing physical toughness with hard to find.
Tracking is part of hunting. But if you use a bullet that is correct for the job then it is much easier. Saying they are not hard to kill just hard to knock down is absolutely insane. Are you hitting the pipe again? If animals are hard to knock down that is the definition of hard to kill. If they stay on their feet and run off that does not make them easy.
Lets see some pictures of all these elk you have got to 20 feet on without calling. I want to see them.

 

[idahoron]

I shot my first elk at 10 yards , 5 times with a 41 mag. Long story but 3 went thru the lungs, 2 in the neck not hitting bone. Followed it over 2 miles before it died. It coughed blood like I had never seen. 210 gr hp lead. They can travel!

From what Muley Hunter says they are a push over. Not hard to kill at all.

 

[idahoron]

Hell Muley lets see some of these mule deer of yours you have killed with your PRB.