Ruger Old Army vs Remington 1858

[Certus]

I would love to have more information on the machining process that converted your Ruger to shotgun primers. Is there possibly a website that shows how this was done?

There are suppliers in the UK who offer 209 shotgun primer as direct replacements for standard percussion cap nipples, but these are not particularly reliable and extraction of the fired primers can be difficult.
Unfortunately, the company who converted my ROA are no longer trading, but there is at least one other company in the UK who still carry out nitro conversions to the ROA.

http://www.aandagunsmiths.co.uk/volquartsen/asm/pistols/ruger-pistols/
The main advantage of my conversion is the ability to load the gun in exactly the same way as the original and without the need to remove the cylinder for loading using a small press.

I will post some pictures of the modified end of the cylinder which houses the 209 primers next time I get the gun out of the safe if that would be of interest

Brian

 

[michiganmuzzy]

heck yeah it will be of some interest!

 

[NIGHTWOLF1974]

I loved my ROA (may she R.I.P.*) carried it in a belt holster on my pistol permit when ML hunting. Although you couldn't legally shoot a deer with it during ML season (holding more than 1 shot) it was intended as a "put-down" shot if my rifle didn't kill it. My father did the same with his, and we used 45 grains 3F, .44cal WONDER WAD, and a .457 RB. in ours.

* we lost them in the 2014 housefire

 

[Certus]

I loved my ROA (may she R.I.P.*) carried it in a belt holster on my pistol permit when ML hunting. Although you couldn't legally shoot a deer with it during ML season (holding more than 1 shot) it was intended as a "put-down" shot if my rifle didn't kill it. My father did the same with his, and we used 45 grains 3F, .44cal WONDER WAD, and a .457 RB. in ours.

* we lost them in the 2014 housefire

I only use my Ruger Old Army for paper target shooting, so very light loads usually provide the most accurate results.
I use just 13 grns (weighed) of Hodgdon 777 with a .457 swaged ball and lubricated wad when shooting outdoors and 4.3 grns of Herco smokeless powder with an Alox lubricated .457 ball on indoor ranges.
Brian

 

[Certus]

heck yeah it will be of some interest!

Here are a few pictures of another 209 shotgun primer ignited ROA smokeless conversion which uses separate firing pins for each chamber rather than the single firing pin present on my revolver. I will add some more detail and pictures of my own conversion soon.

Brian

 

[wmdbowman]

2 pins for indexing good design!
How many time do you think this gun has been fired ?

 

[NIGHTWOLF1974]

Here are a few pictures of another 209 shotgun primer ignited ROA smokeless conversion which uses separate firing pins for each chamber rather than the single firing pin present on my revolver. I will add some more detail and pictures of my own conversion soon.

Brian

Other than the grips, I REALLY like this set-up! (let me wipe the drool away)

 

[Certus]

As promised, here are a few more pictures of my Ruger Old Army converted to shoot smokeless powder ignited by 209 shotgun primers.

Brian

 

[NIGHTWOLF1974]

True Beauty!

 

[J2SHORTT]

So... With that gun, can you use any kind of smokeless powder? Or do you need something with less pressure than your average smokeless?

 

[Certus]

So... With that gun, can you use any kind of smokeless powder? Or do you need something with less pressure than your average smokeless?

Hi,
These revolvers were designed to use slow burning, large flake smokeless powders such as Herco, Unique or Blue Dot to ensure no powder leaks through the primer flash hole. A charge of 4.5 - 5 grns of Herco being the powder charge I would recommend. It's also worth noting that for safety reasons these conversions require reproofing in the UK before their use with smokeless powder.
Brian

 

[Certus]

Some more pictures of my Uberti Remington NMA revolver also converted for use with smokeless powders which seems most accurate with a .457 lead ball and 4.3grns of Herco. The balls just needs to be lubricated with liquid Alox and of course no need for wads of fillers. The conversion is based on the early Remington conversions to use brass cartridges with the cartridge extractor on the original now being replaced with a neat little tool to remove the spent shotgun primers. There is also a hinged loading gate which provides access to the primer pockets. I have found that used primers are removed easily using a magnetised screwdriver blade without the need to remove the cylinder or using the removal tool. The cylinder chambers have been rebated and are consequently narrower at the rear than at the front. This narrower section has been machined to hold the recommended powder charge when full which provides a good visual indication that the load is present and has not been exceeded.

Brian

 

[wmdbowman]

Hi,
These revolvers were designed to use slow burning, large flake smokeless powders such as Herco, Unique or Blue Dot to ensure no powder leaks through the primer flash hole. A charge of 4.5 - 5 grns of Herco being the powder charge I would recommend. It's also worth noting that for safety reasons these conversions require reproofing in the UK before their use with smokeless powder.
Brian

Brian, What is the reproofing process ? Gun Load, Paperwork and so on.

 

[Certus]

Brian, What is the reproofing process ? Gun Load, Paperwork and so on.

As part of the conversion, the guns are submitted to an approved Proof House where they are tested with a charge far exceeding the recommended load and stamped accordingly. There is legal obligation to do this before the guns can be put on sale for use with smokeless powder.
Brian

 

[wmdbowman]

What is the cost of proofing?
Is black powder difficult to obtain?
How costly is black powder in the UK?
I'm trying to understand why you would spend the kind of money you have on your guns.

 

[Matthew323]

What is the cost of proofing?
Is black powder difficult to obtain?
How costly is black powder in the UK?
I'm trying to understand why you would spend the kind of money you have on your guns.

In order to shoot indoors at ranges that are not equipped with high speed air handling devices to exhaust black powder smoke. Thus, the smokeless powder conversions.

England is a small country, and from what I have learned, does not have all that many outdoor ranges to shoot at. In addition, there is the weather for shooting outdoors.

 

[Certus]

What is the cost of proofing?
Is black powder difficult to obtain?
How costly is black powder in the UK?
I'm trying to understand why you would spend the kind of money you have on your guns.

Hi,
After the 1997 breech loading pistol ban, the only modern pistols or revolvers that could be owned here in the UK apart from air pistols with muzzle energies below 6ft/lbs were muzzle loading.
As stated above, these are generally limited to outdoor ranges due to the ventilation limitations normally associated with the vast majority of indoor ranges.
The availability and cost of black powder in the UK is not a problem, but the acquisition and storage
of what are termed "Shooters Powders" in the UK can be problematical.
Smokeless and substitute black powder powders do not require a licence, but dealers must only sell these on production of a valid Firearm or Shotgun Certificate. The acquisition and storage of BP requires the need to apply for an Explosives Licence to either acquire or acquire and store the powder. There are strict limitations on the amount and storage of black powder before a certificate can be granted with specified guidance and conditions for their storage which are subject to inspection before granting the certificate.
Although I prefer shooting outdoors, there are times when the weather or other constraints make shooting on indoor ranges preferable. Also, although I usually clean all my guns as soon as possible after use, it's nice not to have the immediacy normally associated with using black powder.
I still occasionally shoot black powder loads through my Ruger and find the 209 shotgun primers easier to fit, more reliable and cheaper to purchase than traditional percussion caps.
Although I'm not a traditionalist, I can understand the appeal of using traditional muzzle loading firearms and powders, but it nice to have the choice given the non-availability of breech loading guns in this country.
A standard Uberti replica Remington 1858 ML revolver costs around the equivalent of $400 in the UK whereas the nitro converted revolver would cost the equivalent of around $600. This might seem expensive, but they will probably last my lifetime and provide the benefit of flexibility outlined above.
Hope this helps answer your questions.

Brian

 

[wmdbowman]

The powder regs. seem somewhat complicated but one does what he has to do to enjoy this sport.
$ 600 doesn't seem out of the question for a quality revolver.

 

[brucebuilds]

Do you have any idea what velocity you are getting with 4.3 grains of Herco? Do you know of any other suitable smokeless powders? I'm intrigued by this concept, and there is no sense in reinventing the wheel if you already have the data.

 

[Certus]

Do you have any idea what velocity you are getting with 4.3 grains of Herco? Do you know of any other suitable smokeless powders? I'm intrigued by this concept, and there is no sense in reinventing the wheel if you already have the data.

I'm afraid I don't have any actual muzzle velocity data, but the makers recommended a max load is 4.5 grns of Herco with a .454 round ball. A slow burning, large flake powder is required to prevent powder leaking through the flash hole in the chambers during loading..
The maker claims that Blue Dot or Unique would be suitable alternatives to Herco should this not be available.
I've tried charges of 3.5, 4.0 and 4.3 grns of Herco together with both .454 and .457 round ball with 4.3 grns and a .457 pure lead ball proving the most accurate. Interestingly, the same load works equally well in my Ruger Old Army nitro conversion. Others have tried a conical bullet rather than a lead ball without any improvement in performance or accuracy. I'm sure you are already aware that it's essential to use 209 shotgun primers as standard percussion caps will not reliably ignite smokeless powders. This is really a paper target shooting load , but does still provide a satisfying noise with very manageable recoil making it conducive to good accuracy. As a comparison, it feels about the same and groups within the same size as a load of 13grns (weighed) of 777 in my standard Uberti Remington 1858 BP revolver.
Hope this helps.
Brian