Sabot / bullet question

[NatureNick]

Thanks GM, that helps, I'll get hold of Luke. I did see the FTX for the bushy, I assume they must be pretty similar to the sst. Seems strange that as popular as they are you cant buy them in bulk any more. For my cartridge guns I like to keep a good supply of components because, powder, primers, bullets arent available locally and I hate paying $15 in shipping for a box of bullets if im out, I'd like to do the same for my muzzleloader once I find the right load. Seems goofey to buy bullets 20 at a time throw away the sabots and put different ones on. I my try out the XTP's, just saw so many people using the sst's that I figured I should try them.

FTX is same bullet geometry and internal construction as SST, only difference is FTX (Flex-Tip X-Bullet) has a softer tip for use in rifles with tubular magazines. Released around the same time as their LEVERevolution ammo with that bullet line. The .452" 250 grain FTX was originally for .45LC lever rifles, and the .458" 325 grain FTX for .45-70 also works if you get the orange HPH sabots from MMP (mmpsabots.com). I'd imagine you'd have to drive the 325 grain .458" pretty fast to get it to open up right in big game as it reportedly has a slightly thicker jacket than the SST-ML .452" bullets. MMP has a progressive discount and fair shipping.

 

[GM54-120]

The 250gr FTX was made for 450 Bushmaster. Not 45 LC. Even the hottest 45LC load wont begin to get it moving at reasonable at speeds. 454 Casull would.

Reported by who? and yes i would say "free shipping" is very fair from MMP.

 

[MrTom]

LOL....this photo line up sure reveals a ton of inconsistencies in just about every bullet. The Hornady 4500 and in the lower photo the one with the black poly tip seem to be the most cleanly made. Makes a guy wonder how he can hit anything with a jacketed bullet.

 

[GM54-120]

Black tip bullet is a Parker BE. It has a .015 jacket. The others in the bottom pic are..

left to right
250gr SST/FTX
250gr Shockwave
300gr Shockwave Bonded
Parker 275gr BE
325gr FTX

The point is the 325gr FTX is not really any tougher as far as ive seen. It just has a better sectional density. Factory Hornady ammo is only loaded to around 2050fps for the 45/70 325gr FTX.


Ive shot it a little faster and it retained 254gr at around 2150fps impact speed. Its a bit overkill for deer but a modern ML should be able to get it going fast enough as long as you are not really pushing the distance. Really good cheaper option for the Knight 52cals and slightly hotter loads. You can pretty much match the Hornady ammo speed with just a little more BH209 than what is considered max.

 

[GM54-120]

Here are a couple more FTX cutaways you might find interesting

 

[mnoland30]

I shot some Precision Rifle 180 gr. bullets out of my .50 a few years ago, and they shot better than any bullet I've ever used. I shot one at a nice buck at 150 yards, and it ran away with no blood trail. It is possible that I missed, but the shot seemed good. I spent 3 hours looking, and no sign of it. That soured me on light bullets. I've shot several elk that ran off with no blood trail, and had mixed results finding them. Again, perhaps I missed, but once I started using heavy bullets, I quit missing, and 2 out of 4 dropped in their tracks. I love an exit wound because that bleeds. My friend used a 300 gr. PT Scorpion a couple of years ago on a small mule deer, and it worked fine at about 100 yards. They are reasonably priced, and shoot very well in my guns. Much cheaper if you buy bulk. I see from the pictures on this forum that there is a big difference between the size of deer. A big deer out here in southern NM weighs 200 lbs field dressed. Up north, they are even bigger. I've shot Coues deer that weighed 65 lbs field dresseed. If a light bullet works for your deer and your range, count your blessings. Terminal Ballistics Research in New Zealand does lots of autopsies on animals, and comments on most bullets out there. There is a big difference in killing power with high velocity. Low velocity requires heavier bullets to achieve the same effect. He doesn't cover muzzleloaders, but his .45-70 comments work for our velocities.

 

[Doccbst1]

I'm following this thread closely and as usual am filled with more questions than answers. I had read the data on ballistics research before and just reread the 45/70 article again as it is most applicable to a 45/sabots in a .50 Cal @ 1800 fps (+ -).
So assuming no perfect bullet and a weight of 300gr with a spire point designed/polymer/alloy, this would be our best option for over a 200 yd shot.
I know many use the 250gr and that's fine at 100yds or even 200yds, but keep drop fast after 200. Now I don't care about 300yds+ but 250yds is a consideration. Without going into super premium Parker, Precision Rifle, etc type designs is a non hard cast lead an option ?The pistol bullets by berry (traditions canivore) at 305gr and harvester (scorpion 300gr) are plated lead and either ideal or too soft. Are these reallly different than Speer Bonded? Or is bonded another therm for plated (electroplated I think)
The problem I see is getting a projectile that's effective at 30 yds and 230 yds. Even Barnes has some issues at certain velocities and distances. I know this is rambling but only experience can answer and mine is with maxiballs (short range ++++1 devastating) and powerbelt platinum under 100 yds (recovered all deer but not DRT).
What's the best most economical options available: cost vs accuracy vs terminal performance @ 250 yds and under.

 

[Hac]

I'm following this thread closely and as usual am filled with more questions than answers. I had read the data on ballistics research before and just reread the 45/70 article again as it is most applicable to a 45/sabots in a .50 Cal @ 1800 fps (+ -).
So assuming no perfect bullet and a weight of 300gr with a spire point designed/polymer/alloy, this would be our best option for over a 200 yd shot.
I know many use the 250gr and that's fine at 100yds or even 200yds, but keep drop fast after 200. Now I don't care about 300yds+ but 250yds is a consideration. Without going into super premium Parker, Precision Rifle, etc type designs is a non hard cast lead an option ?The pistol bullets by berry (traditions canivore) at 305gr and harvester (scorpion 300gr) are plated lead and either ideal or too soft. Are these reallly different than Speer Bonded? Or is bonded another therm for plated (electroplated I think)
The problem I see is getting a projectile that's effective at 30 yds and 230 yds. Even Barnes has some issues at certain velocities and distances. I know this is rambling but only experience can answer and mine is with maxiballs (short range ++++1 devastating) and powerbelt platinum under 100 yds (recovered all deer but not DRT).
What's the best most economical options available: cost vs accuracy vs terminal performance @ 250 yds and under.

I will give my two from experience on the PT Gold 300gr, In 2015 my youngest son harvested a cow elk at 236 or 238 yards pushed by 80gr by weight of BH209 in a crushed rib sabot and a W209. It was a high shoulder shot, the projectile past through both shoulders and kept going, the cow was DRT. On the range both kids were shooting 250 yards pretty consistently cant recall MOA my two

 

[Doccbst1]

I will give my two from experience on the PT Gold 300gr, In 2015 my youngest son harvested a cow elk at 236 or 238 yards pushed by 80gr by weight of BH209 in a crushed rib sabot and a W209. It was a high shoulder shot, the projectile past through both shoulders and kept going, the cow was DRT. On the range both kids were shooting 250 yards pretty consistently cant recall MOA my two

Yes, the PT Gold 300gr is high in my list, and affordable, their new White Lightning 300gr in .44 even more so but they are so new the only reports I've read are from Toby K but looks promising. The berry (Traditions) 305gr carnivore are very similar. I wondered if the plated bullets hold up at distance but from your post apparently they do.
Thanks for reply

 

[snapbang]

New here but will offer my $.02. I too was looking for inexpensive ways to enjoy shooting my Wolf. I had green MMP sabots from years ago and wanted to shoot lead. I looked on the net and found GT bullets. Several choices for .430 diameter. I purchased 100 each of the 255HP and 305HP hollow points. (they sent samples of the 280 grain I need to try yet) Started with 80 grains of loose ffg 777. Then 90 then 100. At 100 grains the groups are down to 1.25 at 120 yards. Im thinking if I cant kill a deer with 255 or 300 grain bullets at a chonagraphed 1812 FPS I need to find a new hobby. Bullets shipped in about $.20. Sabots shipped in about $.20. $.40 per shot. They are gorgeous bullets so I ordered 250 more of each. Cant wait to hunt with them.

If I needed a long range bullet I would go to the PR Bullets extreme Elite. Inexpensive, aerodynamic, and accurate. I did kill a deer with one this season. At 90 yards the doe stood broadside and the light was fading. I was hoping to drop her in her tracks so shot a little high hoping to put some pressure on the spine. The deer ran off with very little blood trail. I found it 80 yards later in a pool of blood the likes Ive never seen. After it laid down the blood leaked out. I bring this up because I read about poor blood trails or no blood trails being the criteria for using a bullet. When hunting strange things happen. A good shot through the chest and you have your deer. No matter what bullet.

 

[toggy]

Thanks for all the replies. Ive ordered some of the 250 and 300 gr XTP's and some harvester sabots. Guess ill see if I can get them to shoot. Ill be shooting out to 200 yards for fun maybe more if I can, but for hunting I wont have any need to shoot over 100 yards. The XTP's are pretty cheap expecially the 250 gr, so I'm hoping they shoot well, if not I'll have to try sst or ftx

I know this is an old post, but how did those work for you?

I just ordered 300gr XTP mag and harvester sabots to try them out and (hopefully) save a little money.

I was not getting good blood trails with SST and I rarerly shoot past 100 myself.

 

[UPtrapper]

I know this is an old post, but how did those work for you?

I just ordered 300gr XTP mag and harvester sabots to try them out and (hopefully) save a little money.

I was not getting good blood trails with SST and I rarerly shoot past 100 myself.

Both the 250 gr and 300 gr shot very well with 70 gr weighed of bh209 in both my Optima and Wolf. I did try heavier loads but 70gr seemed very accurate and the recoil was light. I shot a nice 6pt with the 300gr at 85 yards and was more than happy with the results. I just received 2 more boxes of the 300gr xtp from midway yesterday at $21.83 a box I see no need to try anything else. I was also happy with the harvester short smooth sabot. Muzzleloader season starts Friday here in MI and I have the entire season off, hopefully I'll have more results to share.

Mike

 

[toggy]

Both the 250 gr and 300 gr shot very well with 70 gr weighed of bh209 in both my Optima and Wolf. I did try heavier loads but 70gr seemed very accurate and the recoil was light. I shot a nice 6pt with the 300gr at 85 yards and was more than happy with the results. I just received 2 more boxes of the 300gr xtp from midway yesterday at $21.83 a box I see no need to try anything else. I was also happy with the harvester short smooth sabot. Muzzleloader season starts Friday here in MI and I have the entire season off, hopefully I'll have more results to share.

Mike

Best of luck out there!

 

[UPtrapper]

You too. If you find you aren't happy with the 300gr xtp's for some reason and want to try out some 250's let me know I'll send you a few to try out. I shot up the whole box of 300's but only a few of the 250's. I plan to get an optima pistol to play with and will try the 250's in that, but I can certainly spare a few.

Mike

 

[toggy]

Thanks! I ended up ordering 250s as well as 300s just to see how they do. I'll probably end up giving some away or selling them myself...

 

[CGhost]

You too. If you find you aren't happy with the 300gr xtp's for some reason and want to try out some 250's let me know I'll send you a few to try out. I shot up the whole box of 300's but only a few of the 250's. I plan to get an optima pistol to play with and will try the 250's in that, but I can certainly spare a few.

Mike

MichiganMuzzy is selling an optima pistol great deal, didn't know if you've seen it posted

 

[UPtrapper]

MichiganMuzzy is selling an optima pistol great deal, didn't know if you've seen it posted

Thanks, I'll take a look.

 

[MrTom]

The pistol he is selling is very well outfitted. And a superb deal. Michigan Muzzy takes excellent care of his toys too so you'll get a well cared for gun.