sabot vs full bore ? and 1.28 vs 1.22 twist ? and ..... 50 vs 45 ???

[JeffB1961]

which do you folks prefer ? soooo .... i thought i "knew" i wanted to go with 50 when i get my ML simply because of there being more (and often cheaper) 50 cal bullet choices . in these mountains (Tazewell Va , Appalachians) i'll probably never have shot at a deer over 200 yards (mostly 100 or less) .... but elk in Va is possible in other areas but i still don't think i try shooting one farther than 200 .

i'm asking because i'm thinking (which sometimes gets me in trouble) if sabots are reasonably/similarly as accurate at 200 yards as full bore bullets it would open up .45 cal bullet options if i went that route .... . which also gives me the benefits of 45s higher velocity and the 1.22 twist . is the 1.22 twist a real benefit ... or is it marketing ? BTW ..... i think i want to go with solid copper bullets .

can someone post a link to or share what difference i can expect velocity wise between the same powder charge and a similar weight bullet and barrel length using 45 vs 50 cal ?

i'm sure there's factors i'm unaware of to consider so some info on them would be nice also . i've %95 decided i want a accura mr-x or lr-x . i'm thinking if i go 50 i'll go with the mr-x and if i go 45 to go with the lr-x . y'alls thoughts and experience for recommendations is appreciated . BTW .... am i over thinking all this ? should i just KISS and go 50 ?
take care , jeff

 

[michiganmuzzy]

Imo, if you want to shoot solid coppers AND hunt elk. You will have to go with a .50 and will be shooting sabots.

 

[michiganmuzzy]

At the ranges you're considering(<200), 1:28" will be more than adequate for any sabot bullet you will find. I think you'll need stout loads, too, to expand well out there if solid copper.

 

[JeffB1961]

what would you consider a "stout load" ?
if i go with the 50 cal accura would the 30 inch barrel lr-x version provide me with any tangible benefit over the 26 in barrel mr-x version ?
would the longer/heavier barrel lr-x provide any tangible felt reduction in recoil ? 6.7 lbs vs 8.1 lbs ?
i have a replaced knee and replaced hip so i wont be doing long stalks .... just hunting from ground blinds or in a barn .

 

[MrTom]

What powder are you wanting to shoot? 110 grains [v] of either BH209 or T7 granular is a very common load for bullets weighing from 250 to 300 grains and would certainly be good to 200 yards. Recoil will be moderate with bullets within this weight range, but obviously the lighter rifle will have more punch to the shoulder. Barrel length between 26" and 28" will not afford much in the way of velocity gains using the 110 grain charge and bullets within 250 to 300 grain range, maybe 100 fps. My go-to rifle is an Accura v2 50 cal and I shoot a 250 grain, .45 cal Barnes XPB copper bullet in a black crush rib sabot pushed with 77 weighed grains [110 by volume] of BH209. On the ground my longest shot to date on a deer with this get-up is 167 yards and everything performed flawlessly. Had an elk offered the same shot I would have had no qualms about taking the shot.

 

[JeffB1961]

well .... i was planning on BH209 , but the availability now and seeing folks say it's $70+ for 10oz now IF it can be found .... so i guess 777 powder for $32 for a pound and i think i'll need the FF version . i'll be weighing with a scale . i'm thinking CCI 209M primers , but i saw a youtube video suggesting winchester 209 777 primers are best for 777 powder . . i've been using Muzzle Loaders.com - Official Website as my go to for comparing pricing and components .... are they a safe place to do business with ?

between a plastic sabot , pure lead and a solid copper or copper jacketed bullet is either significantly easier or harder to clean out of a muzzle loader barrel ?

 

[ourway77]

There isn't much velocity to grain between a 26" and 30" barrels each one will get you to 200 yards with some to spare It's a pain in the butt every rifle is different You just have to try different combinations till you find one your rifle likes I like Fury bullets

 

[snapbang]

I always thought if I were to go elk hunting I would use The 450hp or the 465solid in the pic below. They shoot very nice out of my .50 Knight with 1/28 twist. Gotta think they would give good penetration and retain energy out to a distance. I have some 545 and 620 grain bullets but haven't shot those yet.

 

[mnoland30]

Shooting a .50 with a sabot is much simpler, with lots of bullet choices. With a sabot In a .45, you can reduce recoil by going to .40 caliber bullets. I have an Encore .45, and an Accura V2 LR. To shoot bore riding bullets, you'll need an adjustable sizer. Then you can size the bullet to exactly fit the bore. Muzzleloaders are notorious of not having the exact caliber bore size.

The special 777 primers do reduce the crud ring a little bit. 777 is easy to clean with just soap and hot water. Put the muzzle in the water and a tight cleaning patch will pull the water up into the barrel. I swab with a damp patch between shots. That eliminates any issues with the crud ring, and my first shot from a clean barrel goes the same place as following shots. I couldn't tell any difference in accuracy using BH209, and the price is outrageous. I seldom see it on the shelves here in Albuquerque, and they always run out of powder during hunting season. Nothing worse than sighting in your rifle before the season, and then not being able to find more powder. O.K., maybe one thing is worse, not having any primers. In my Accura, Win 209 primers fit right with no blow by. The primers come out clean after firing. Of course, there are none to be had.

For elk, I like heavy bullets with a sectional density near .280. I like an exit wound. Pure lead bullets will expand to over an inch, and generally won't exit. I use .45-70 bullets in a sabot in my .50 for elk. I don't like pointy bullets for elk. They tend to go in like a needle and the wound doesn't bleed on that side. A heavy flat point or hollow point generally drops them in their tracks, and exits. I tried hardcast bullets which will penetrate an elk from front to back, but it didn't kill as quickly as I like.

For deer, velocity won't be your issue. A 300 gr. bullet pure lead bullet out to 200 yards, and I've never had a deer go more than a few feet. I started shooting maximum loads in my muzzleloader, but I've found that better accuracy and much nicer recoil is found at lower powder volumes.

 

[ourway77]

I always thought if I were to go elk hunting I would use The 450hp or the 465solid in the pic below. They shoot very nice out of my .50 Knight with 1/28 twist. Gotta think they would give good penetration and retain energy out to a distance. I have some 545 and 620 grain bullets but haven't shot those yet.

View attachment 20826

Do you use lube on the bullets and a wad under If so which

 

[deermanok]

While I can't offer much on your bullet choices, as I'm a more traditional patched round ball kinda guy, I can say that Muzzle-Loaders.com is a very good company to do business with. I'm a long time customer.

 

[JeffB1961]

thanks for the replies folks .
i've been given a older .50 cal. CVA optima to use indefinitely , so i guess the 45 vs 50 and twist rate questions are solved for me ....... at this time .
i very much appreciate the answers and suggestions here though .

take care folks , Jeff

 

[snapbang]

I use the green lube Michiganmuzzy sent me. I also use a cardboard wad and a .54 veggie wad between the cardboard and the bullet. It shoots 1-1/2 inch easily at 100 yards with 100 gr(v) of T7. Im sure a better shooter could shoot better groups. Frankly thats good enough for me.

FYI Mrhollowpoint sizes them to .504 for me.

 

[JeffB1961]

Mr Hollowpoint is a hoot ! luv that guy

 

[GBG]

They shoot very nice out of my .50 Knight with 1/28 twist.

I have some 545 and 620 grain bullets but haven't shot those yet.

May I ask what powder charge you would try with the 545 and 620 grain bullets?

 

[snapbang]

May I ask what powder charge you would try with the 545 and 620 grain bullets?

Thats a good question. Since the 450 performed so nicely and I have doubts I will ever hunt elk with a mz I never gave it any thought.

With Blackhorn 209 with 444 grain Powerbelt
80 gr(v) 1,428
100 gr (v) 1,597
120 gr (v) Not Recommended


The fact that blackhorn doesn't recommend more than 100 grains volume with a 444gr powerbelt leads me to think that heavy a weight shouldnt be shot. I will hope someone chimes in with experience in this area. As for me, I wouldnt try it. If your really interested in hunting elk with those I think the 450 should kill an elk no sweat. I have killed 2 elk but with CF so I am not an expert. But if I cant kill an elk with 450 grains of lead, more will not help. IMHO

Sorry Im not more help.

 

[Wildrangeringreen]

I like bore-sized bullets, they're generally cheaper (not always... looking at you copper with aluminum pointed bullets out there, lol), and easier to be consistent with. If it's worth taking an "x"-caliber rifle out after it, shoot "x" caliber bullets, otherwise, get a smaller rifle; it'll be a little cheaper on powder, and you won't have to mess with sabots. I view sabot ammunition much the same as militaries do: special purpose ammo (hunting groundhog with a .50-.36 ML)

Even at BP velocities (500gr .45, 70gr BP, 1200+- fps), you can take anything in N.A., and most African big game as well. Common deer load was a 275-325gr bullet and 80-85gr of BP in .45-70.

IMHO, BH209 is laughably overpriced for what it is... a fast smokeless rifle powder that's been extruded in a way that makes it more easily metered out in commercial BP volume measures (but is still corrosive, due to the additives that allow it to slip under the legal radar as a BP "sub"). 777 and Pyrodex give marginal performance boosts over BP, but tend to be more difficult to clean and are more corrosive than BP. If you are hunting within 200 yards, you don't need uber-magnum performance, even the lowly .44-40 (in a BP loading) has a useable trajectory out to 200 yards for deer (ironically, it has a similar trajectory to a RB+85-90gr load in a .50 ML rifle that some of the trad guys are using). In other words, overgrown, wild goats (AKA deer) do not require bison-hunting loads to kill.

Something like an Accurate Molds 50-350E or 50-375E (minus rebate for GC) would be adequate for Elk within 200yd, the lighter loads for "577/500 BPE NO. 2" were around a 340gr bullet and 130gr of BP, and were used on many non-dangerous game species in Europe and Africa. The heavy, 3-1/8" loadings for 577/500 No. 2 were a 440-480gr bullet and 160-170gr of BP. In .45, something like a 45-295W or 45-335M (minus GC rebate) would work well with 100-140gr of BP and would equate roughly to a 3-1/4" 450 BPE or a 3-1/8" 500/450 BPE. 450 BPE was considered an excellent deer (Roe, Fallow, and Red) cartridge in it's day by Europeans, who have, since the 1870's been known to prefer OP loadings for everything (their laws even require them now in most places).

.45 would give you a little more efficient bullet for the weight, but at 200yd, that doesn't matter much (a couple inches of drop, 100fps +- less). Nothing that can't be overcome with a couple clicks on a scope, or folding a sight leaf up. Lead Alloy bullets just plain work, pure lead works for deer, something like a Lyman #2 alloy might be better for Elk. Rotometals has lead/lead alloys for sale that range from $2.50-$5.50/lbs shipped. 20, 350gr bullets/lbs = $0.13-0.28/ bullet. 23, 295gr bullets/ lbs = $0.11-0.24/ bullet

 

[mnoland30]

The best groups I've gotten out of my .45s was with a 405 gr. home cast bullet lubed with NASA lube over 1/8 in. .50 wool felt wad and 80 gr. of 777. The .45-70 centerfire was considered potent medicine for everything in North America, with a 500 gr. bullet and 70 gr. of black powder.

 

[barbatotony]

The best groups I've gotten out of my .45s was with a 405 gr. home cast bullet lubed with NASA lube over 1/8 in. .50 wool felt wad and 80 gr. of 777. The .45-70 centerfire was considered potent medicine for everything in North America, with a 500 gr. bullet and 70 gr. of black powder.

That sounds like something I would like to try, sir. May I ask what mold you are using and where do you get the metal?

 

[JeffB1961]

please excuse me for being a cheap bass turd ...... but is the cheapest route for practicing and getting familiar with the 2003 CVA optima i've been given to use as long as i like gonna be buying sabots and .45 pistol ammo and then this fall spend a few bucks on some premium ammo that will be used just for hunting and of course check/re-sight with a few rounds before actually going hunting ?

or should i just spend $50 on some of these ?
https://muzzle-loaders.com/collecti...iber-sabot-44-caliber-240-grain-20-pack-h6720