Schuetzen Powder Accuracy Test & Velocity

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Yes true, mine parted from this earth as it parted from the bench when my brother shot his muzzle braked 338 through it. Never bothered to buy another but may have to.
Ouch! I once center punched the screen on my Chrony f1… with the over powder wad from a fifty four renegade. Standard dry wool felt wad and you wouldn’t think it but it killed the Chrony dead right there!
The folks who owned Chrony at the time were gracious enough to send me a replacement free of charge. Along with the suggestion that I protect the screen with a bit of cardboard in the future. I have but I’ve also never had a wad coming close to hitting the machine.
 
Let us all remember that the original .45-70 cartridge load for the Springfield Trapdoor military rifle was 70 grains of coarse black powder. The powder, by today's standards, was not anywhere near to the quality of our current black powder offerings.

I sometimes think that we modern muzzleloading shooters get too obsessed with maximum velocity, which equates to maximum muzzle energy. We also seem to forget, that except for target shooting, most loads with different powder brands, or powder granulations, will kill whatever big game animal that we wish to hunt.

Unless a rifle's group size is over 6" at a ranged 50 yards, it will reliably put a ball/bullet into the kill zone of a whitetail deer, a mule deer, an axis deer, an elk, a moose, a black bear, an antelope, a caribou, a bison, or a feral hog.

And, before everyone starts crying about how, "their rifle" has to be capable of shooting one hole groups before they are satisfied with its hunting accuracy, just remember this fact.

In the 400 plus years since the first firearms were used to hunt wild game with, more animals have been killed with smoothbore weapons, than with rifles, by a factor of at least 5:1. It's possible that the ratio is even greater than 5:1.

And, the average 5-shot group accuracy level for a smoothbore, regardless of whether it is a military musket, or a civilian fowler, ranges somewhere in the neighborhood of 4"-5".

So, don't get too upset when your favorite rifle won't split a playing card with every powder/ball/bullet/wad/patch/lube combination.
 
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Let us all remember that the original .45-70 cartridge load for the Springfield Trapdoor military rifle was 70 grains of coarse black powder. The powder, by today's standards, was not anywhere near to the quality of our current black powder offerings.

I sometimes think that we modern muzzleloading shooters get too obsessed with maximum velocity, which equates to maximum muzzle energy. We also seem to forget, that except for target shooting, most loads with different powder brands, or powder granulations, will kill whatever big game animal that we wish to hunt.

Unless a rifle's group size is over 6" at a ranged 50 yards, it will reliably put a ball/bullet into the kill zone of a whitetail deer, a mule deer, an axis deer, an elk, a moose, a black bear, an antelope, a caribou, a bison, or a feral hog.

And, before everyone starts crying about how, "their rifle" has to be capable of shooting one hole groups before they are satisfied with its hunting accuracy, just remember this fact.

In the 400 plus years since the first firearms were used to hunt wild game with, more animals have been killed with smoothbore weapons, than with rifles, by a factor of at least 5:1. It's possible that the ratio is even greater than 5:1.

And, the average 5-shot group accuracy level for a smoothbore, regardless of whether it is a military musket, or a civilian fowler, ranges somewhere in the neighborhood of 4"-5".

So, don't get too upset when your favorite rifle won't split a playing card with every powder/ball/bullet/wad/patch/lube combination.

Another difference between now and the old days is back then clean kills were not considered necessary. The belief was animals neither felt pain or if they did seeing as though they were below humans it didn't matter. Because of that bad shot placement or poor penetration didn't matter.
I for one don't want to just hit an animal, I want to hit it exactly where I'm aiming as close to every time as I can. And do so knowing it's got the energy required to perform well and have the cleanest kill possible.

In regard to accuracy, some people just love it - my brother being one - and the idea of having a big ragged hole is very exciting to them. There's no problem striving for that if it's what you want.
 
Another difference between now and the old days is back then clean kills were not considered necessary. The belief was animals neither felt pain or if they did seeing as though they were below humans it didn't matter. Because of that bad shot placement or poor penetration didn't matter.
I for one don't want to just hit an animal, I want to hit it exactly where I'm aiming as close to every time as I can. And do so knowing it's got the energy required to perform well and have the cleanest kill possible.

In regard to accuracy, some people just love it - my brother being one - and the idea of having a big ragged hole is very exciting to them. There's no problem striving for that if it's what you want.

EXCELLENT Post my friend! :lewis:
 
Don't get me wrong, I am as in love with super accurate rifles, as most of the post-WWII generation of shooters. For most of my youth, and young adulthood I was constantly striving to put 5 shots into the same hole at 100 yards. Came close a couple of times, but never achieved that mythical goal.

It's just that over the past couple of years, where I have been living vicariously through the exploits of the members of Modern Muzzleloading, The Muzzleloading Forum, and the American Longrifles forum; I have come to realize that if I can get the Optima V2 pistol (when it finally shows up from Doc White), and any other muzzleoading guns that I might eventually own, to shoot well enough to put 5 consecutive shots into a 1" circle at 50 yards; then I should be thankful for that level of accuracy.

That would make for 2 M.O.A. accuracy out at 100 yards. And, that's plenty sufficient for hunting whitetail deer, mule deer, feral hogs, or black bears. I seriously doubt that I will ever get the chance to hunt elk, moose, or antelope, unless a miracle occurs.

Of course, from all the reports that I have read here at MM, I fully expect the Optima V2 pistol to shoot far better than 2 M.O.A. at 100 yards. I just feel that for me, 2 M.O.A accuracy will more than suffice if I do my part to be a real hunter, not just a killer of game animals.
 
Don't get me wrong, I am as in love with super accurate rifles, as most of the post-WWII generation of shooters. For most of my youth, and young adulthood I was constantly striving to put 5 shots into the same hole at 100 yards. Came close a couple of times, but never achieved that mythical goal.

It's just that over the past couple of years, where I have been living vicariously through the exploits of the members of Modern Muzzleloading, The Muzzleloading Forum, and the American Longrifles forum; I have come to realize that if I can get the Optima V2 pistol (when it finally shows up from Doc White), and any other muzzleoading guns that I might eventually own, to shoot well enough to put 5 consecutive shots into a 1" circle at 50 yards; then I should be thankful for that level of accuracy.

That would make for 2 M.O.A. accuracy out at 100 yards. And, that's plenty sufficient for hunting whitetail deer, mule deer, feral hogs, or black bears. I seriously doubt that I will ever get the chance to hunt elk, moose, or antelope, unless a miracle occurs.

Of course, from all the reports that I have read here at MM, I fully expect the Optima V2 pistol to shoot far better than 2 M.O.A. at 100 yards. I just feel that for me, 2 M.O.A accuracy will more than suffice if I do my part to be a real hunter, not just a killer of game animals.

I get what you mean and don't disagree about minute of deer shooting loads. But I would caution from the assumption that a 1" at 50 means 2" at 100. Groups can open up very quickly based on a variety of things. Mostly the shooters ability. If you're shooting to 100, practice to 120 or 150, at least know exactly what groups you will get from your 100 yard load.
 
If you can regularly hit a clay bird at 100 yards from hunting positions with iron sights you are more than good to go. I believe most any black powder available to us today is more capable than we are of doing that.
 
What consistent accuracy brings is confidence. Doubt regarding one's hunting gun, smooth or rifled, is catastrophic in the woods. Its always better to be secure in the knowledge that, if there's an issue, its not the gun. If I had to choose between an inconsistent rifle that shoots an inch one day, and 3 the next, and a consistent 2 incher... Guess which rifle is going for a walk.
Swiss powder. Best there is, in my experience. I've long had a suspicion that European granulation is about a half F finer than ours. So their 2 is 2 1/2, 3 is 3 1/2. That has a great effect on burn rate and velocity. I have no means to test this, but I wish someone would.
The difference between Swiss and same granulation of other brands is not unlike going up an F.
Just a thought.
 
I accuracy shot Schuetzen 2F Powder this morning, and shot over my Chronograph to gather Velocity Data. .54 Cal Patched Roundball, 224 Grain Ball. Powder charge was 80 Grains by WEIGHT. I used a Proven Load for this Short Range accuracy Test (Patch/Ball Combo) that performed excellent yesterday with my Swiss 2F Powder, I simply switched the Powder from Swiss to Schuetzen This morning and Group Shot it.

The Video


HF6WEXg.jpg


3 Shot Group at 60 Yards. Schuetzen shot very well, Just as good as my Swiss Did Yesterday
fBUzGjS.jpg


Schuetzen 2F Velocity was 1,353 Fps. Again, The powder charge was 80 Grains by WEIGHT
fPHA2P8.jpg


GOEX 2F Velocity was 1,461 Fps, Powder charge was also 80 Grains by WEIGHT
sEAL7UF.jpg


Swiss 2F Velocity was 1,624 Fps, Powder Charge was also 80 Grains by WEIGHT
dzlEUAd.jpg

Not much difference in accuracy, but huge difference in velocity. I was gonna do this same test, you beat me to it. Good shootin’ as always bud!!!
 
I have been extremely blessed to have had all three of my flintlock longrifles, which I owned between the years 1971-1992, to have been capable of consistent 1.5" (size of a silver dollar), 5-shot groups at 100 yards.

Although I am ordinarily an OCD kind of guy, for some strange reason that I have never been able to understand, I found myself happy with, and content with, the 5-shot silver dollar size groups at 100 yards. Considering how bad my eyesight has been since I first started wearing glasses (8 years old), I considered then, and still consider to this day, a silver dollar size group at 100 yards to be excellent shooting.

I was even more blessed to have stumbled upon a means of shooting those small bench rest groups, without needing to wipe the bore between shots. Just having a sufficiently thick patch that completely filled the grooves of the barrel, thus pushing the old fouling from the previous shot down on top of the new powder charge. Said spent fouling being blown out of the barrel behind the patched ball, and not in any way effecting any of those rifles accuracy.

I was triply blessed to have been able to readily find the same easy loading, easy shooting, no wiping between shots required, accurate type of load for rifles numbered two, and three. As I had them commissioned, and custom built years later.

I was quadruply blessed to have spent as much of my free time, as was possible, from the ages of 11-16, shooting an adult-sized, single-shot, Crossman, Mark 1, CO2 pellet pistol in .22 caliber. That heavy, full-sized, pellet pistol with a grip angle identical to a Colt 1911A1, forced me to learn to shoot with 2 hands from the very beginnings of my handgun shooting. It had great, fully adjustable, target sights that helped teach me what a correct sight picture was supposed to be.

That handgun shooting, and the subsequent hunting of sparrows with it, laid the fundamentals for all of my future shooting & hunting with long arms. Especially, with my muzzleoading rifles, and pistols.

As has already been stated, an accurate rifle/smoothbore/handgun is one in which a shooter will feel comfortable, and confident, going hunting with.

I feel that GOD has blessed me many times over, and over, during the course of my lifetime, not least of which has been with my muzzleoaders.
 
Lewis
Have you done any testing using Swiss 1.5F powder and what about Swiss 3F in any of your target sessions with your 45 or 50 cal rifles? Just a little curious.
DL
 
Lewis
Have you done any testing using Swiss 1.5F powder and what about Swiss 3F in any of your target sessions with your 45 or 50 cal rifles? Just a little curious.
DL

Swiss 1.5 was VERY Accurate, But i had hangfire issues with it in my Sidelock MLs, due to the Courser texture and #11 Caps it doesn’t work as well in Sidelocks, at least for me it didn’t. 1.5 is best suited for Cartridge Guns, with Centerfire Primers :lewis: I stil have this Can of it and plan to do some Velocity testing out of curiosity, Swiss 2F is ideal in my Sidelock MLs

I have shot a lot of Swiss 3F, it use to be my Favorite Powder, But after trying Swiss 2F i never looked back at 3F again, 2F was MUCH more accurate in all of my Testing.
 
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Did you ever compare Olde Eynsford for velocity?

No, I thought about it in this testing, But it’s hard for me to get Interested in any GOEX Powder now that they are Gone. I stil have most of a Can of Olde E. 2F
 
Hey Lewis, have you ever shot Elephant brand powder? I'm not suggesting you involve it in your testing, just curious if you've ever shot any. I think I have 10 Lbs or more of it in storage from 30 years ago. I've never shot any of it yet. I stocked up on powder at Friendship, put everything away and proceeded to get on with life. Everything I read about it back in the day said that it was really dirty, I reckon I'll find out whenever I get to go shooting again.
 
Swiss 1.5 was VERY Accurate, But i had hangfire issues with it in my Sidelock MLs, due to the Courser texture and #11 Caps it doesn’t work as well in Sidelocks, at least for me it didn’t. 1.5 is best suited for Cartridge Guns, with Centerfire Primers :lewis: I stil have this Can of it and plan to do some Velocity testing out of curiosity, Swiss 2F is ideal in my Sidelock MLs

I have shot a lot of Swiss 3F, it use to be my Favorite Powder, But after trying Swiss 2F i never looked back at 3F again, 2F was MUCH more accurate in all of my Testing.
thanks Lewis. I have found another pound of Swiss 3Fg locally but no 2Fg. Not till about April i am told. Schuetzen 2Fg and 3Fg they have in stock. Guess i will go with the Swiss 3Fg for now, maybe a pound of Schuetzen 2Fg as backup. The Swiss 3Fg i have only used in my '51 Colt and '58 Remmy revolvers. Any recommendations on grains for a TC Hawken 50 cal 1-48 twist using Hornady 410 grain and 385 grain Great Plains Bullets with the Swiss 3Fg powder?
DL
 
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