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Smokeless revolvers.

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steamjohn

Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2020
Messages
11
Gooday All

I was told in no uncertain terms by the moderator of another Forum that I was NOT welcome to discuss any muzzle loading weapon that did not shoot Black Powder and that there were other more appropriate places for that sort of sacreligious talk.

So I've arrived here.

As well as a number of historic Rifles .303 Lee Enfield, Winchester, Marlin, Martini etc. a Long barrelled semi auto .22 pistol and a .357" Long barreled revolver,
I also shoot a M.L. (Parker Hale built, about 1960s, .451" 2 band Volunteer (Black Powder only) , a Ruger Old Army .44 and a Remington .44 New Model Army, (both the latter converted to fire smokeless. (the reason being my club along with many others will not allow Black Powder to be used on our indoor range)

I've been looking through the various sections of this forum, admittedly only going back to the recent past, but can find no mention of smokeless firing M.L. Handguns or anyone shooting a late model M.L. Rifle, replica or otherwise.

I cast my own ammo and hoped there might have been folk on here with similar interests with whom I can exchange ideas on lead, powders caps/primers etc.

Regards

Steamjohn
 

toytruck

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 22, 2005
Messages
2,597
I was not aware of any muzzle loading revolver that was capable of shooting any modern smokeless powder. If there is such a product, please enlighten me....
I would not be against such a weapon, just not interested with all the cartridge guns available.
 

GM54-120

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10,939
My 58 has a 45 colt long cylinder.
One of these?
This conversion cylinder is for BLACK POWDER cartridges or black powder equivalent cartridges (also called Cowboy Ammunition) with lead bullets on a steel frame revolver ONLY. Attempting to use modern ammunition and/or installation on a brass frame will create a dangerous condition that can result in injury or death
.
 

steamjohn

Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2020
Messages
11
perhaps I can make things a little clearer in respect of the situation in the UK. for those who may not be aware.

Unlike some other parts of the world we have only had two mass shootings here, one at Hungerford which resulted in legally held semi automatic rifles above ,22 calibre being banned, and more recently at Dunblane which resulted in all legally held Handguns having to be surrendered, (albeit accompanied by a financial compensation scheme)

Many handgun shooters simply gave up or took up "gallery rifle" shooting as a near substitute.

Fairly soon it someone noted that any rifled weapon, of any calibre had to have a minimum over all length.

And so were born the long barrelled revolvers in any calibre and semi auto pistols in .22"

In order to still have some semblance of a revolver (like a Buntline), barrels are 12" long and projecting from the rear/bottom of the grip is a non removeable 'extension' (sometimes termed a wrist brace), which together with the long barrel takes the weapon to the legal length.

Since semi auto .22 rifles are still legal so are .22 long barrelled, semi auto pistols, configured in the same way as the revolvers, (Often the longer barrel is disguised so as to appear a to be a silencer such as on the Colt 1911)

Muzzle loading guns ,rifle or handgun, are NOT illegal in the UK but even if genuine antiques must be held as a Section 1 on a Firearms Certificate if they are to be shot/used as opposed to being in a collection.

Some who had lost their handguns took up muzzled loading revolvers using black powder but enthusiasm was tempered by the necessity of thorough cleaning after use and the fact that many shot their handguns at indoor ranges and many of those ranges (mine included), banned the use of black powder in any weapon, due to considerations of ventilation and contamination by wads/grease etc.

There is also a perception that at least some black powder revolvers suffer cap jams, ignition failures .
and chain fires.

At some point people began to convert Black powder revolvers to shoot smokeless powder which necessitated the manufacture of new cylinders and a firing pin or pins fitted into a backplate behind the cylinder capable of detonating shotgun primers. The whole weapon then has to be submitted for proof in respect of the use of smokeless powder.

This resulted in revolver that was in every respect similar to a breech loading cartridge weapon except that loading takes longer. (typically about 40 seconds a chamber). Otherwise they are used in indoor ranges in the same way as 'gallery rifles' etc. require no more cleaning than any other gun, make no smoke and leave no mess.

As far as i am aware there are at least three firms in the UK that supply 'Smokeless' revolvers or will convert your black powder revolver of whatever calibre and have it proved. They are without exception more expensive than Black Powder revolvers, either to have one converted or 'ready made' but are of high quality and the nearest you can get to a cartridge revolver.

I shoot a Smokeless Ruger Old Army .44 and a Uberti 1858 New Army .44 professionally cylindered and proved for smokeless.

I joined this forum originally in the hope of exchanging views with others that shoot similar weapons.

If anyone is interested I can put up pictures and some addresses.

Steamjohn



These smo
 

J2SHORTT

New Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2020
Messages
2
I think thats a grand idea adapted to current laws with safety in mind. It seems to me that these companies probably have it figured out. Would you mind either posting some more info on these businesses across the pond or PM the info to me?
 
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Certus

Active Member
Joined
Feb 18, 2020
Messages
34
Gooday All

I was told in no uncertain terms by the moderator of another Forum that I was NOT welcome to discuss any muzzle loading weapon that did not shoot Black Powder and that there were other more appropriate places for that sort of sacreligious talk.

So I've arrived here.

As well as a number of historic Rifles .303 Lee Enfield, Winchester, Marlin, Martini etc. a Long barrelled semi auto .22 pistol and a .357" Long barreled revolver,
I also shoot a M.L. (Parker Hale built, about 1960s, .451" 2 band Volunteer (Black Powder only) , a Ruger Old Army .44 and a Remington .44 New Model Army, (both the latter converted to fire smokeless. (the reason being my club along with many others will not allow Black Powder to be used on our indoor range)

I've been looking through the various sections of this forum, admittedly only going back to the recent past, but can find no mention of smokeless firing M.L. Handguns or anyone shooting a late model M.L. Rifle, replica or otherwise.

I cast my own ammo and hoped there might have been folk on here with similar interests with whom I can exchange ideas on lead, powders caps/primers etc.

Regards

Steamjohn
Hi,
Have a look here and also at the specific post related to the Ruger Old Army under the same general heading.


Brian
 

Onty

Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2020
Messages
8
I would appreciate if you could list reliable sources in UK and EU for smokeless powder conversion cylinder. I have Ruger Old Army, stainless, and would like to have opportunity to shoot smokeless powder with shotgun 209 primers.

Also, when you are loading conversion cylinder, do you load like old SA revolver "load one, skip one, load the remaining chambers and come to full cock, then lower the hammer on an empty chamber"?

MSalyards, what kind of 250 gr bullet you are using? Do you have chamfered chambers on a cylinder?

Thank you
 

steamjohn

Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2020
Messages
11
onty

please go to the thread on this forum entitled

Ruger Old Army vs Remington 1858

Where you find four pages of discussion on this subject including, I suspect the information you seek.

steamjohn
 

Onty

Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2020
Messages
8
Thank you Steamjohn. The best description how to load conversion cylinders I found here:


As I suspected, one chamber should be left empty. In that respect, I would assume the same procedure should be when loading cylinder converted to use shotgun 209 primers. Those notches allow visual inspection to check if primer is in that particular chamber.
 

steamjohn

Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2020
Messages
11
Yesterday at 7:03 AM
I would appreciate if you could list reliable sources in UK and EU for smokeless powder conversion cylinder. I have Ruger Old Army, stainless, and would like to have opportunity to shoot smokeless powder with shotgun 209 primers.

Onty

We appear to be at cross purposes here., I misunderstood your request above which I took to mean that you were interested in converting a R.O.A. BLACK POWDER Muzzle Loading Revolver, to be capable of using Smokeless Powder, ignited by 209 Shotgun primers, (but still as a Muzzle loader), which is what the thread I directed you to is all about.

It appears you are actually interest in converting your R.O.A to fire fixed ammunition, (Taylor and Co Cartridge conversion cylinder), i.e. cased rounds as a breech loader.

If you wish to use SMOKELESS fixed ammunition, as opposed to black powder, in the cases, you will need a cylinder proofed for smokeless and additionally the entire revolver will need to be proofed for smokeless as the R.O.A. as supplied, is stamped NOT NITRO on the underside of the barrel.

Hope this helps sorry to have pointed you to a thread that was not what you needed to know.

I do not know about the EU but certainly in the U.K. any Section 1 Handgun, NOT a muzzle loader such as you propose, is not permitted, (unless it has a barrel 12" long and a butt extension taking the overall length of the gun to in excess of 60 Cm.

Steamjohn
 

Certus

Active Member
Joined
Feb 18, 2020
Messages
34
Thank you Steamjohn. The best description how to load conversion cylinders I found here:


As I suspected, one chamber should be left empty. In that respect, I would assume the same procedure should be when loading cylinder converted to use shotgun 209 primers. Those notches allow visual inspection to check if primer is in that particular chamber.
As we are only permitted to use these revolvers for target shooting at approved ranges in the UK the carry condition doesn't apply here.
The gun can only be loaded at the firing point and must be shown to be clear before it can be removed from the firing point upon leaving the range.
Consequently, all six chambers can be loaded and fired safely as the gun is never in transit during the entire sequence.

Brian
 

Onty

Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2020
Messages
8
Onty

We appear to be at cross purposes here., I misunderstood your request above which I took to mean that you were interested in converting a R.O.A. BLACK POWDER Muzzle Loading Revolver, to be capable of using Smokeless Powder, ignited by 209 Shotgun primers, (but still as a Muzzle loader), which is what the thread I directed you to is all about.

It appears you are actually interest in converting your R.O.A to fire fixed ammunition, (Taylor and Co Cartridge conversion cylinder), i.e. cased rounds as a breech loader.

If you wish to use SMOKELESS fixed ammunition, as opposed to black powder, in the cases, you will need a cylinder proofed for smokeless and additionally the entire revolver will need to be proofed for smokeless as the R.O.A. as supplied, is stamped NOT NITRO on the underside of the barrel.

Hope this helps sorry to have pointed you to a thread that was not what you needed to know.

I do not know about the EU but certainly in the U.K. any Section 1 Handgun, NOT a muzzle loader such as you propose, is not permitted, (unless it has a barrel 12" long and a butt extension taking the overall length of the gun to in excess of 60 Cm.

Steamjohn
My apology for confusion I created unintentionally.

I am interested in shooting Ruger Old Army using front loading cylinder for shotgun primer 209 and smokeless powders. NOT "SMOKELESS fixed ammunition". So, I am concerned about safety because ROA and other BP revolvers do not have safety system as (for example) Ruger NM Blackhawk or modern DA revolvers. The safety on BP revolvers is a blind notch between primers/nipples, where hammer should rest once revolver is loaded.

If any BP SA revolver has installed one of those cylinders for shotgun primers and smokeless powder, and no blind safety notch for hammer, the only safe way is to rest hammer on empty chamber.

Just for curiosity, I checked several conversion cylinders for standard ammo with multiple pins, and none of them have blind notches(1). Again, the only safe way is to rest hammer on empty chamber. Mike Beliveau confirmed this, so I put the link for his video.

BTW, all conversion cylinders I had seen (pictures) have a small notch so chambers could be visually inspected if there is round in it.

NOTE: 1. Please take a look on this webpage from C&C Sutlery and Modern Products Arms - Conversion Cylinder - Ruger Old Army .44 Caliber . Two top cylinders for Ruger Old Army have a back plates with blind safety notches, but holes where suppose to be firing pins look empty. At the first moment I thought that they shown just cut off ends of standard ROA cylinders, but, there is a knurl on edge!?

Please correct me if I missed i misinterpreted something.
 
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