Smooth Size Barrel Fit

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Over the years this shooter read many threads regarding how one goes about shooting 45 caliber bullets in 45 caliber rifles. Most threads seemed to be concerned with the bullet obturate the bore successfully. It was implied, at least in my mind, this is difficult to accomplish. Many wrote about using duplex loads to 'bump' the bullet. Many wrote about heavy loads to accomplish this 'obturate' thing. Many threads implied this is tricky business.

Looking for something 'new', this year this shooter began shooting without sabot. Nearly half way through the year now, several hundred shots have been taken.
One thing that concerned me was whether 80 grain Blackhorn would be enough to make shooting without sabot work. No problem. No more worries about using loads of 110 grain. Another concern was making the bullets 'tight' enough. No problem. These days the bullets are sized such, they load very easy. This shooter does not enjoy pushing hard to load bullets to the powder.




IMG_4836.JPG






The bullet was shot using 50 grain Blackhorn. It was sized to be easily pushed to the powder. Note how the rifling engraved the bullet.

The bullet was loose in the bore. The powder charge was way small. The bullet shot fine.

What is the deal?? Why? Why the myth about difficulties shooting loose bullets, and low powder charges?



The next fun thing going on now is shooting 50 caliber bullets in 50 caliber rifles. This has been great fun. Fifty caliber bullets 'look' bigger than 45 caliber bullets by a lot somehow. They punch 'noticeable' bigger holes in paper too.
 
I had a lot of fun shooting Jacketed Sabotless in my Sidelocks a Couple years ago, I tried about everything out there Available. I couldn’t walk through a Sporting Goods Store without looking at their Jacketed Bullet Selection, Anything i could find in .451-.452 I had to buy a Box to Try, I did the Exact same Thing in .50 Cal

Jacket thickness is KEY to Success in our Muzzleloaders, Handgun Bullets are where it’s at. I tried a Few Different Rifle Bullets that were Right on Length/Weight, They loaded GOOD N TIGHT, By all rights i felt they would Shoot Great? But they Ended up Shooting HORRIBLE, With some going through my Targets Sideways, The Jackets were to Thick, Bullets Weren’t “Bumping up”

In the end i had a LOT of Fun Shooting Jacketed Sabotless Bullets, I found some Loads that Shot REALLY Well, With Stellar Bullet Performance when Recovered
 
Cannot comment much, except to say the only bullets used by this shooter are easy to size, stay sized over night, and are sized to easily slide down to the powder. Not interested in finicky, nor difficult.
 
Depends on what bullet your shooting. I shot a Hornady 250 grain FTX out of my Disc Elite with 120gr (V) BH209. The recovered bullet barely had rifling marks on it and hit the target way off where I wanted it to.

you can see the knurl marks but no rifling marks, they are there but hard to see in the pic
PLJsjDV.jpg
 
I ran into the same issue with FTX/SSTs. Very fussy about fit and load. A couple would shoot ok then a keyhole would pop up. No problems at all with the Noslers, Sierra 300gr 458 or Parker BEs because they all had thin jackets and softer cores. Sure wish Nosler offered a cheap 300gr JHP like the 250gr. Cores are pure soft lead and easy to get to shoot and size.
 
Ron, I think GM54-120 presented you a valid reason that it is working so well for you. The thickness or even the quality (hardness) of the copper wrap on the copper/lead bullet. Back to the old adage... "not all things are created equal."

In my efforts to shoot sabotless in both my 50's and 45 Super DISC's, I have tried many different bullets. Many re-sized well but did also "spring back" to some extent. In a discussion with Jeff (Bestill Creations) he suggested several bullets with the thin (thinner) copper covering that would work well in my efforts.

Then on the other end of the spectrum - I do now shoot a lot of bullets that are very hard and are small enough in diameter that they need to be knurled to increase the diameter. Some of these load so easy that I really wonder why they shoot so well. They are what I call a "land rider" or more commonly a "Bore Rider". They do not obterate at all but shoot amazingly. With these I am using one kind of gas seal or another.

These Barnes all copper bullets with a simple cut knurl in them go down the bore without much push shoot extremely well.

Barnes-EXP-Cut-Knurling.jpg


I do the same with the much harder Lehigh Bullets either brass or copper.

It still surprises me how well these shoot! But, I have never tried your reduced loads.
 
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One thing never mentioned in the OP.

All the different wads used, all follow the rotation of the rifling, and unscrew the jag on the rod, when pushed down to the powder..

None of the bullets used seem to follow the rotation of the rifling as they are pushed down the barrel to the powder i.e. bullets don't unscrew the jag on the rod.



Is that two things?
 
One thing never mentioned in the OP.

All the different wads used, all follow the rotation of the rifling, and unscrew the jag on the rod, when pushed down to the powder..

None of the bullets used seem to follow the rotation of the rifling as they are pushed down the barrel to the powder i.e. bullets don't unscrew the jag on the rod.

Is that two things?

I am surprised that the bullet was so soft that 50 grains would obturate it enough to to grasp the lands as the markings on the bullet indicate. Again, Ron I have never shot that greatly of a reduced load with a full bore bullet.
 
Well Mike,

Was just trying to 'catch' bullets propelled by only 50 grain Blackhorn. You can blame Tom for my trying.

Like was said in the OP, over the years there has been much posted about how tricky it is to shoot full bore bullets in a muzzle loader. Like you wrote, it is best if using reduced loads, to use 'soft' bullets.

One can 'learn' lots of myths on these here forum. Here are two, one can unlearn right here in this thread. Blackhorn doesn't require a tight bullet to ignite is an unmyth, as is a bullet can obturate using light powder charge, and/or no duplex charge.

On April Fools, it was kinda appropriate these myth were disproved when this BULLET was captured.
 
Great post Ron! When I talked to Bob Parker about using the Ballistic Extreme our of my Austin Halleck .45 he was concerned they wouldn’t obturate and grip the rifling, I have yet to recover a fired bullet, but as sized by him, they shoot pretty awesome, so I’m betting they do.
 
I have not tried a jacketed out of the .451 White but after seeing this, some testing may be in order. Again, good post!
 
Is that a 265 grain Fury STB? Looks like it bumped up good.
I've shot them using T7 fff in my Accura V2 & BH 209 in the Paramount, they shot good ( both the 250gr & 265gr ) and ya can't complain about the price for them either.
I got 45/40 200gr SST sabots for my Accura V2 to try out. They load great, but I haven't gotten them to group very well yet. The charge is 100gr BW T7fff. Perhaps thats pushing them too hard??? I just made up some charge tubes with lighter charges in 5gr increments from 100gr to 80gr T7fff to see if they shoot any better at slower MV's. The Fury STB's I've shot them with as much as 105gr BW BH 209 as well ( smokin fast ) And with as light as 85gr T7fff too.
I have a few of the Fury .453 STB's 265gr left, I'll order some more 250gr STB's just for the Accura shortly. They're both keepers IMHO.
 

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