So little blood

[Bigterp]

I was reading @rugerbh103 1st buck story & got thinking about why is there so little blood many times with a muzzloader hit on deer? I’ve killed countless dozens of deer with a ML (shooting jacketed ballistic tip sabots) I’ve only lost one. But many fatal hits had little to no blood. My bow & rifles leave more prominent blood trails consistently. What’s the scoop?

 

[Matthew323]

My take on your question is the use of pistol and rifle bullets in sabots at muzzleloading velocities that only punch a caliber, or slightly over caliber sized hole through a deer's body.

Deer are considered soft-bodied big game animals. Easy to shoot through.

As Ron's bullet testing here at MM has proven out many times, many of the bullets sold to muzzleloading hunters are velocity dependent for expansion.

If the wrong bullet is chosen, it might not expand. If the proper bullet is chosen, and too little powder is used, it might not expand. If the proper bullet is chosen, the correct powder charge is employed, but a long range shot is taken, where the velocity has fallen off to the point below the bullet's requirements for expansion, then the bullet might not expand. If the bullet does not encounter any bone, it might not expand.

Or, the bullet might not expand as much as we THINK IT SHOULD.

At the beginning of the move in muzzleloading to inline rifles shooting saboted, jacketed pistol bullets; a lot of marginal bullets were marketed to hunters under the assumption that since black powder rifles & smokeless powder handguns operated in the same general velocity ranges as one another; it would be OK to put those bullets in a sabot to kill deer.

At the beginning of the 20th Century move to inline m-l rifles, there was a LOT of press touting the sabot/jacketed bullet combo as being FAR SUPERIOR to the patched ball of yesterday.

This is JUST NOT TRUE. A pure lead ball has the ability to kill FAR BEYOND what the ballistics tables would suggest. Ballistic tables were INVENTED/DESIGNED around pointed projectiles.

A ball ALREADY has most of its mass close to its bore diameter. Upon striking a soft-bodied deer, a pure lead ball will immediately start to expand, usually to AT LEAST 1.5 times its original diameter. Sometimes, more. It does this at velocities considered sub-optimal for modern bullets sold to be used in a m-l sabot.

Something to keep in mind....

In the history of humans hunting with firearms, MORE ANIMALS HAVE BEEN KILLED WITH LEAD BALLS, (patched in rifles)(bare in smoothbores), than have been with bullets; by a VERY, VERY, VERY LARGE MARGIN!!!!

 

[HC]

 

[ENCORE50A]

A hit higher in the body cavity can sometimes leave little to no blood because the body cavity will fill first.
Lower hits leave little body cavity to fill before blood loss.
Plan entrances and exits.

 

[Bigterp]

A hit higher in the body cavity can sometimes leave little to no blood because the body cavity will fill first.
Lower hits leave little body cavity to fill before blood loss.
Plan entrances and exits.



View attachment 10189

Totally agree, my point of aim on deer regardless of weapon is inline with front legs lower 1/3. A very close shot would have to aim for the exit not the entrance. As I head down this muzzloading rabbit hole that is far deeper than I imagined, I was curious if there is a better way & since I’ve had similar results since I started hunting with a muzzloader /same propellant that points towards the projectile. I’m going to switch to loose powder this year & wanted to explore my options if shot placement wasn’t the main culprit & maybe something else.

 

[Bigterp]

My take on your question is the use of pistol and rifle bullets in sabots at muzzleloading velocities that only punch a caliber, or slightly over caliber sized hole through a deer's body.

Deer are considered soft-bodied big game animals. Easy to shoot through.

As Ron's bullet testing here at MM has proven out many times, many of the bullets sold to muzzleloading hunters are velocity dependent for expansion.

If the wrong bullet is chosen, it might not expand. If the proper bullet is chosen, and too little powder is used, it might not expand. If the proper bullet is chosen, the correct powder charge is employed, but a long range shot is taken, where the velocity has fallen off to the point below the bullet's requirements for expansion, then the bullet might not expand. If the bullet does not encounter any bone, it might not expand.

Or, the bullet might not expand as much as we THINK IT SHOULD.

At the beginning of the move in muzzleloading to inline rifles shooting saboted, jacketed pistol bullets; a lot of marginal bullets were marketed to hunters under the assumption that since black powder rifles & smokeless powder handguns operated in the same general velocity ranges as one another; it would be OK to put those bullets in a sabot to kill deer.

At the beginning of the 20th Century move to inline m-l rifles, there was a LOT of press touting the sabot/jacketed bullet combo as being FAR SUPERIOR to the patched ball of yesterday.

This is JUST NOT TRUE. A pure lead ball has the ability to kill FAR BEYOND what the ballistics tables would suggest. Ballistic tables were INVENTED/DESIGNED around pointed projectiles.

A ball ALREADY has most of its mass close to its bore diameter. Upon striking a soft-bodied deer, a pure lead ball will immediately start to expand, usually to AT LEAST 1.5 times its original diameter. Sometimes, more. It does this at velocities considered sub-optimal for modern bullets sold to be used in a m-l sabot.

Something to keep in mind....

In the history of humans hunting with firearms, MORE ANIMALS HAVE BEEN KILLED WITH LEAD BALLS, (patched in rifles)(bare in smoothbores), than have been with bullets; by a VERY, VERY, VERY LARGE MARGIN!!!!

I’ll keep reading , plenty to ponder! Thanks for the insight.....

 

[MrTom]

For maybe twenty years I have been punching holes in deer with XTP type bullets and have no problem with blood. Last year I switched to Barnes Expanders and definitely had no blood issues. I kind of look at bullets like a high performance car....you have to get your foot in the gas to make them do what they're supposed to do. I think most jacketed pistol-type bullets will get the best accuracy and expansion at 100 to 120 grains [V] of powder or the weighed equivalents.

 

[edmehlig]

Pure lead conicals seem to work for me.

 

[rugerbh103]

Back then I was shooting an SST over two pellets. Kept having blood trail issues. I eventually wound up going to Barnes Expander over loose T7 powder. I noticed an immediate difference. I almost always had an exit wound and often the forest floor was painted with blood. I have since tried Barnes tipped bullets and am currently shooting scorpion PT golds or XTP's. All have pluses a minuses, but none of them beat the original Expanders as far as blood trails go.

 

[dbowling]

Ive killed probably 80 deer with pistol bullets/sabots mostly XTPs and usually the only hits that didnt bleed a lot are the ones shot high thru the lungs and even those usually had blood spraying out the nose from the deer trying to breath and blowing it out.
Good blood trails are a result of good shot placement/expanding bullets. And like Ed said a big lead conical almost always leaves massive amounts of blood.

 

[mnoland30]

I shoot heavier bullets for the higher B.C. and S.D. Most of the deer I've hit with Precision Rifle 330gr QT or 340 gr.DC bullets never take a step. They are pure lead, and expand to over an inch.

Elk are a different story. I believe the sectioal density of most muzzleloader bullets is too low to penetrate sufficiently at 220 yards (my maximum range). A bullet with a plastic tip will go in like a needle and won't leave a hole big enough to bleed. Most of the bullets I've tried won't penetrate an elk. Best luck I've had is with .458 405gr. .45-70 bullets. That flat meplat smacks them hard, and leaves enough of a hole to bleed. The big jacketed bullet penetrates well. Out of 4 elk, I've recovered one bullet. I once tried a hardcast bullet and it penetrated front to back diagonally and left no blood trail.

 

[Muley Hunter]

I've switched to the Thor bullets without the tip. I don't care about BC because I hunt in the timber. I want a full caliber bullet that will expand easily and put two big holes in the deer, bear, and elk. I haven't decided on how much BH to use yet. Whatever will blast through any game I hunt.

 

[rgell1017]

Back then I was shooting an SST over two pellets. Kept having blood trail issues. I eventually wound up going to Barnes Expander over loose T7 powder. I noticed an immediate difference. I almost always had an exit wound and often the forest floor was painted with blood. I have since tried Barnes tipped bullets and am currently shooting scorpion PT golds or XTP's. All have pluses a minuses, but none of them beat the original Expanders as far as blood trails go.

Your exactly right I have switched to Barnes Expanders and 84 grains weighed of BH 120 volume shoot for 1/3 up inline with front leg. If it does go out to sight which is rare even this old man with cataracts forming can track. Also use Federal 2 3/4" Barnes expander slugs hunt deer shoot and go get it