Some Difficulty Getting My Savage ML II to Group Well

[Harley469]

After shooting my last buck I became concerned with the accuracy of my ML II. Initially I thought I simply made a bad shot, which could still be partially to blame. I have been doing some intense testing at 100yrds with a variety of load combinations. My recent tests have included the following powders/bullets/sabots:

Accurate 5744
N120
H4198

I have tested the following bullets:
Hornady 250gr SST
Hornady 250gr FTX
Hornady 250gr XTP
Remington 250gr Accutip (Barnes Bullet)
Hornady 325gr FTX
Barnes 300gr Original Spitzer
Speer 300gr Deep Curl
Parker 300gr Ballistic Extreme

I used mmp short black sabots for all .451/.452 bullets and mmp orange sabots for all .458 bullets


To summarize my results:
1) I did not get any 250gr bullets to group well (all 3 shot groups at 100yrds were 4 inches or greater) with 44grns of Accurate 5744
2) All 300/325gr bullets performed far better than any 250gr bullet, but only using N120 and H4198. When using 44grns of Accurate 5744 groupings were poor for 300gr bullets.
3) I got my best two groups from Hornady 325gr FTX bullets and the Barnes 300gr Original Spitzer (2.5 inch groups with 60 grns of H4198 and 57grns of N120)

I was shooting from a Cadlwell lead sled at 100yrds. Temps were around 20 degrees. I allowed the barrel to cool for 10min between shots.

I had been shooting 1 inch groups before this season using 300gr Barnes Original Spitzers with 57 grns of N120, and have no idea why I can't get back there, unless it's a problem with the barrel or scope. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

 

[gle3105]

Check your breech plug. Loose? Flash hole carbon‘d up? Vent liner need cleaned?
Wouldn’t think in 20 degrees it would take 10 minutes to cool.
I’d forget the sled for accuracy testing.

 

[birdog]

Ditch the sled. I had issues with accuracy using the lead sled before I went to a bag and then the Caldwell BR rest. Vortex CS told me the sled or anything like it is hard on scopes as it takes away too much recoil.

 

[Mnt monkey]

No experience with the Savage,, I put together a 50 cal 1 and 28 twists Brux barrel I got from hankins I've had great results with sr4759,, I know that powders not available any longer still some around if you search,, fury 452s and almost anything else 250 to 275 in the harvester black shoots Great ,1/2-in groups,, started with 36 grains and I've worked my way up to 40,,, think I still have a little room but accuracy is fine so I stopped there.. the traditions Little Red glowing tip bullet too I guess it's a Barry's plated bullet in the traditions Little Red sabot shoots lights out .

 

[powderfinger]

Ditch sled X3 !!
Clean plug, vent liner and barrel.
Get some sand bags and try again.
make sure all screws are tight.etc.
Let us know how it goes......

 

[gle3105]

What sabots r u using?

 

[D55]

Ditch the sled. I had issues with accuracy using the lead sled before I went to a bag and then the Caldwell BR rest. Vortex CS told me the sled or anything like it is hard on scopes as it takes away too much recoil.

+1

 

[D55]

Check the base screws especially the front. It was the most common cause for me that has caused sudden deteriorating groups. Lead sleds have claimed many scope victims.

 

[Harley469]

Thanks to all of you for the info, particularly the sled- I had never heard that before but I sure am glad to know now. That is the last time I will ever use that again. Back to the sandbags. One of you mentioned the breech plug- it WAS LOOSE. I cleaned it and there wasn't much carbon build up in the flash hole, but after I cleaned it and the vent liner the groups tightened up "slightly". Using Badger Ridge vent liner-it wasn't loose. Could I have too much anti-seize on the breech plug? For years I have always used a liberal amount of anti-seize on my plugs. I also put just a bit on the vent liner. There is no way a hot barrel would have affected the groups in that cold weather so I ruled that out. I will try shooting from bags this week and report back. I did check the scope screws and they were all tight (Leupold Freedom scope, about 2 years old with Warne rings. I also made sure the stock screws were tight. I will clean everything up and shoot some more this weekend (can't get out until then). I will report back after taking all the suggestions. By the way, I mentioned it in the original thread, but someone asked what sabots I was using- all MMP sabots- short blacks for .451 and .452 bullets and the orange sabots for .458 bullets.

 

[SupplySgt65]

This might help, link takes you to a site dealing with effects of tuning the action and tang screws:

https://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/savage-action-screw-torque-tuning/

 

[jims]

I have used the Lead Sled on a variety of firearms over the years and never had a problem with it. Don't like the recoil when verifying loads. Accuracy issues can be many but would check the breech plug and vent liner for carbon/wear etc.

 

[birdog]

I shoot bullet to bore with my .45 Knight DISC and that gun is very accurate so no experience with sabots. I also shoot a Savage 220F slug gun that is very accurate until the barrel gets fouled with plastic from the sabot. How often are you cleaning the barrel? I can get about 6-8 shots from my Savage slug gun before I see my groups start to open up. Like jims said, there are many things to look at.

 

[HV-Muzzleloaders]

Arrowhead Rifles makes a better breech plug for your rifle. It has a carbide bushing.


Savage 10ML-II Plug with Tungsten Carbide Bushing – Arrowhead Rifles

.

 

[robertb]

How many shots do you have on the vent liner? If it is an OEM vent liner, they're good for about 100 shots before accuracy fades. If you don't have a set of pin hole gauges to checkit, I'd suggest replacing the vent liner and try it again. 44 gr of AA5744 and a 300 gr SST in an MMP black sabot will give me around a 1-1.25" group.

 

[ttrailz]

I had a similar issue . First off it’s a known factor lead sleds are gentler on you but tough on the gun the stock & the scope . The recoil has to go somewhere . If it’s not transferred to you then the weapon gets it . Bull bags & sand filled rests are much better. A great load for me is 73.0 grains of IMR 4198 an orange MMP sabot a 300 grain barnes original bullet & federal gold medal 215 primer . Or 57 to 60 grains of N120 & the same components as above . I had my bolt face modified along with the breech plug to use large rifle primers & a module that accepts the rifle primers . It’s much more stable & the tolerances are tighter with less blowback + a hotter ignition . Also added a third pillar in front of the trigger guard about 1 7/8” inches in front of the rear pillar . The third pillar really tightened up the groups . All just suggestions that worked for me . I used to shoot 60 grains of N 120 & backed it off for comfort & increased accuracy . Another great bullet is the Nosler # 31456 300 grain polymer tipped look it up . I never had any luck with 300 grain SSTs the jacket always separated from the core . After retrieving bullet fragments from 2 bucks along with the polymer tip I stopped using them . Poor bullet to jacket bonding . I have never retrieved a barnes original from any of the many deer I have taken with my Savage .

 

[Harley469]

I had a similar issue . First off it’s a known factor lead sleds are gentler on you but tough on the gun the stock & the scope . The recoil has to go somewhere . If it’s not transferred to you then the weapon gets it . Bull bags & sand filled rests are much better. A great load for me is 73.0 grains of IMR 4198 an orange MMP sabot a 300 grain barnes original bullet & federal gold medal 215 primer . Or 57 to 60 grains of N120 & the same components as above . I had my bolt face modified along with the breech plug to use large rifle primers & a module that accepts the rifle primers . It’s much more stable & the tolerances are tighter with less blowback + a hotter ignition . Also added a third pillar in front of the trigger guard about 1 7/8” inches in front of the rear pillar . The third pillar really tightened up the groups . All just suggestions that worked for me . I used to shoot 60 grains of N 120 & backed it off for comfort & increased accuracy . Another great bullet is the Nosler # 31456 300 grain polymer tipped look it up . I never had any luck with 300 grain SSTs the jacket always separated from the core . After retrieving bullet fragments from 2 bucks along with the polymer tip I stopped using them . Poor bullet to jacket bonding . I have never retrieved a barnes original from any of the many deer I have taken with my Savage .

73grns of 4198-wow!! I had been working with 60 grns. I am "guessing" you are able to use more powder due to the mods you made to the breech plug? I would be very wary of using anywhere near that much powder in my stock ML II. That being said, I just started out using 4198 (would like to continue using it because I have more of it than N120-seems to be easier to get, and I reload 45-70 cartridges with it as well). What speeds are you seeing using that much powder? I haven't chronod anything lately, just looking for good groups at the moment. 2100-2200 is good enough for the deer I shoot. I'm guessing you are over 2300fps with that load, even with a 300gr bullet. The Barnes has always been my favorite muzzleloader bullet by the way- it is also what I use in my Remington Ultimate with 150grns 777.

 

[Harley469]

How many shots do you have on the vent liner? If it is an OEM vent liner, they're good for about 100 shots before accuracy fades. If you don't have a set of pin hole gauges to checkit, I'd suggest replacing the vent liner and try it again. 44 gr of AA5744 and a 300 gr SST in an MMP black sabot will give me around a 1-1.25" group.

I have probably 40 shots on my current vent liner (Badger Ridge vent liner). 44grns of 5744 just grouped horribly for me with any bullet/sabot combo I used-no idea why.

 

[Harley469]

I shoot bullet to bore with my .45 Knight DISC and that gun is very accurate so no experience with sabots. I also shoot a Savage 220F slug gun that is very accurate until the barrel gets fouled with plastic from the sabot. How often are you cleaning the barrel? I can get about 6-8 shots from my Savage slug gun before I see my groups start to open up. Like jims said, there are many things to look at.

I usually do a full barrel cleaning after about 30 shots, but run a couple dry patches down the barrel after every shot. I know many don't, but I just like doing it.

 

[Harley469]

Arrowhead Rifles makes a better breech plug for your rifle. It has a carbide bushing.


Savage 10ML-II Plug with Tungsten Carbide Bushing – Arrowhead Rifles

.

This is something I had considered

 

[ttrailz]

73grns of 4198-wow!! I had been working with 60 grns. I am "guessing" you are able to use more powder due to the mods you made to the breech plug? I would be very wary of using anywhere near that much powder in my stock ML II. That being said, I just started out using 4198 (would like to continue using it because I have more of it than N120-seems to be easier to get, and I reload 45-70 cartridges with it as well). What speeds are you seeing using that much powder? I haven't chronod anything lately, just looking for good groups at the moment. 2100-2200 is good enough for the deer I shoot. I'm guessing you are over 2300fps with that load, even with a 300gr bullet. The Barnes has always been my favorite muzzleloader bullet by the way- it is also what I use in my Remington Ultimate with 150grns 777.

I started out using 69.5 grains & you can safely go to 73.5 grains of IMR 4198 . I never chronied any of the loads . Just go by groups & comfort . I still like the 57 grains of N120 better than the 73 grains of 4198 . I purchased plenty of N 120 before the Arkansas trailer track took over the Whitehouse .