Some Difficulty Getting My Savage ML II to Group Well

[ttrailz]

I started out using 69.5 grains & you can safely go to 73.5 grains of IMR 4198 . I never chronied any of the loads . Just go by groups & comfort . I still like the 57 grains of N120 better than the 73 grains of 4198 . I purchased plenty of N 120 before the Arkansas trailer track took over the Whitehouse .

Trailer Trash

 

[BadgerRidge]

First thing I'd do is get a pin gage and check the vent liner's hole size... if its .036 or larger you probably found a major cause of accuracy issues... time to replace the vent liner.

I still think you can buy a bunch of ventliners (like a life time supply plus) before you equal the cost of buying a new breech plug with bushing.

But call me biased. I sell pin gages and vent liners.

Yours,

Tom

 

[GM54-120]

I guess it depends what loads you shoot. Them big loads of 4198 and 300gr bullets can trash a vent in under 30 shots. Seen it happen many times in 45cal conversions. Pressure "dwell time" is longer with powders like that and it eats vent holes especially if the primer is not totally sealing. The bushing itself is about $31 with ring and will outlast a vent 10 fold.

 

[Harley469]

First thing I'd do is get a pin gage and check the vent liner's hole size... if its .036 or larger you probably found a major cause of accuracy issues... time to replace the vent liner.

I still think you can buy a bunch of ventliners (like a life time supply plus) before you equal the cost of buying a new breech plug with bushing.

But call me biased. I sell pin gages and vent liners.

Yours,

Tom

I have your pin gauge and checked the vent liner with it- no problems there. I bought a bag of your vent liners last year so I am good for a long time.

 

[cam]

vent liner worn out. install a new 1.
also clean breach plug

 

[whislpig]

GM 54-120 gave this to me on here.
Upto 41gr of N110 but i would start around 39gr first. Old book loads went higher but N110 is hard on sabots. Great powder but rises to peak quick. Extremely clean and temp stable too.

Any book load of SR4759 if you can find any. Its no longer made.

You can surely try Reloder7. Its safe. Even 65gr wont hurt the barrel but the fps wont be all that great. About the same speed as a max load of N110. The same amount of N120 will be screaming at over 2500fps but that speed may not last when temps drop. Extreme spreads probably wont be great either.

Re7 was one of the original powders used in the first Savage ML. It was not listed in later manuals. Now Savage lists is again in the approved loads. IMO they list it because it pretty safe. Not because its a good powder for a 250gr bullet. Its quite good for bullets in the 300-325gr range though. A bit dirty but very reliable with 300gr-ish bullets. Personal favorite load was 63gr Re7, MMP Orange sabot and a 325gr FTX. Black crushrib and the newer 458 crushrib from Harvester might also work.

 

[BadgerRidge]

I guess it depends what loads you shoot. Them big loads of 4198 and 300gr bullets can trash a vent in under 30 shots. Seen it happen many times in 45cal conversions. Pressure "dwell time" is longer with powders like that and it eats vent holes especially if the primer is not totally sealing. The bushing itself is about $31 with ring and will outlast a vent 10 fold.

As you already know: All vent liners are not created equal. The current Lehigh (that we sell) is 17-4 stainless and heat treated/carbonited. Vastly superior to the old style Savages: Should give double or triple the life of the original black ones if not even more... Have plenty of folks (shooting blackhorn209) that report 300 plus shots and still can't get a .036 ZZ pin gage through our 17-4 Stainless Lehigh vent liners. At $5.25 each with as many as you want shipped for $7.00 against the cost of a new breech plug with bushing... Are you so sure its worth it for most folks to go with a new breech plug that has a bushing? I'm not convinced.

Yes loads, pressures, cleaning habits, primer choice (due to varying heat and amounts of ground glass in the priming compound) all affect vent/bushing/flash hole erosion/life. Whether its a vent liner or carbide bushing...

If I was shooting a rifle every weekend and/or shooting matches with it, then I see the advantage of a carbide bushing: long life and huge periods without measurement/maintenance would be very beneficial there. In that case one could even shoot enough to show that the bushing saved $... but I think the bushing is just a smart move for folks who shoot so much they could wear a vent out in a day or two of shooting. And that is a small portion of shooters.

But for most of us who are just hunting and playing with loads to get our gear ready to hunt, again, I'm not convinced a bushing is better than a vent liner. Seems like the simple effective solution is just getting good vent liners (like our Lehigh's) and a pin gage and checking the flash hole size every time one does maintenance. They'll probably last a few seasons before most folks get enough shots on them to replace them... and the replacement is cheap, especially if you buy in bulk.

My .02 USD... who am I as a guy who sells stuff to challenge a super user/mod/admin on the forum, with a different perspective?

Tom

 

[Harley469]

The gun is totally cleaned up-everything appears correct in regard to the breech plug and vent liner. Put my coating of Knight anti-seize on the breech plug and liner (I have always used CVA anti-seize, doubt it will make any difference, but as I said in this thread earlier, my breech plug was "loose" when I removed it). I tightened the plug up as much as I could, so we will see how shooting goes this weekend. I don't even plan on messing with any 5744, so just N120 and H4198 with 300gr bullets, using MMP sabots (short black for .451/.452 diameter bullets and orange for the .458 diameter bullets).

 

[BadgerRidge]

Many of us use teflon tape on our breech plug's threads instead of anti-seize grease. Seals well. Prevents BP from sticking, and doesn't flow like grease does into the action (pressure from shooting can push anti-seize grease backwards and into the action). Also reduces the chance of getting grease in the area where you are putting powder... which tends to make a mess if you can manage to get it burning... or can make it hard to get the powder burning if its mixed with grease...

 

[GM54-120]

everything appears correct in regard to the breech plug and vent liner.

So a 5/32 bit fits in the flash channel too....right?
Sorry i got to ask after the 1000s of times ive seen people say they cleaned the plug and didnt do it the right way.

On a side note you might want to see what a trace looks like of that 4198 boomer load. 60gr of N120 is around 33-34k and just over 2300fps.

 

[powderfinger]

GM54, do you have pressure traces for RL7 and the 300 and/or 325 grain .458 bullets ?

 

[GM54-120]

No but Wakeman ran some and with a QL prediction so it sounds about right
https://www.randywakeman.com/ballltd52.htm

 

[Hausser1]

As you already know: All vent liners are not created equal. The current Lehigh (that we sell) is 17-4 stainless and heat treated/carbonited. Vastly superior to the old style Savages: Should give double or triple the life of the original black ones if not even more... Have plenty of folks (shooting blackhorn209) that report 300 plus shots and still can't get a .036 ZZ pin gage through our 17-4 Stainless Lehigh vent liners. At $5.25 each with as many as you want shipped for $7.00 against the cost of a new breech plug with bushing... Are you so sure its worth it for most folks to go with a new breech plug that has a bushing? I'm not convinced.

Yes loads, pressures, cleaning habits, primer choice (due to varying heat and amounts of ground glass in the priming compound) all affect vent/bushing/flash hole erosion/life. Whether its a vent liner or carbide bushing...

If I was shooting a rifle every weekend and/or shooting matches with it, then I see the advantage of a carbide bushing: long life and huge periods without measurement/maintenance would be very beneficial there. In that case one could even shoot enough to show that the bushing saved $... but I think the bushing is just a smart move for folks who shoot so much they could wear a vent out in a day or two of shooting. And that is a small portion of shooters.

But for most of us who are just hunting and playing with loads to get our gear ready to hunt, again, I'm not convinced a bushing is better than a vent liner. Seems like the simple effective solution is just getting good vent liners (like our Lehigh's) and a pin gage and checking the flash hole size every time one does maintenance. They'll probably last a few seasons before most folks get enough shots on them to replace them... and the replacement is cheap, especially if you buy in bulk.

My .02 USD... who am I as a guy who sells stuff to challenge a super user/mod/admin on the forum, with a different perspective?

Tom

And for those of us residing in the 'mitten', it's good to support our local businesses! Thanks Badger

 

[X-ring]

And for those of us residing in the 'mitten', it's good to support our local businesses! Thanks Badger

Badger ridge....great products and fast service too!

 

[Harley469]

So a 5/32 bit fits in the flash channel too....right?
Sorry i got to ask after the 1000s of times ive seen people say they cleaned the plug and didnt do it the right way.

On a side note you might want to see what a trace looks like of that 4198 boomer load. 60gr of N120 is around 33-34k and just over 2300fps.

Wow, I was using 60grns of 4198, not 70. I have used up to 60grns of N120, but find that 57-58grns has created more accurate groups.

 

[Harley469]

So a 5/32 bit fits in the flash channel too....right?
Sorry i got to ask after the 1000s of times ive seen people say they cleaned the plug and didnt do it the right way.

On a side note you might want to see what a trace looks like of that 4198 boomer load. 60gr of N120 is around 33-34k and just over 2300fps.

I drilled out what little carbon was in there. Pheasant hunting tommorow and getting the Savage back out Sunday.

 

[Harley469]

Update: Tested my Savage ML II after a thorough cleaning of everything. My first two shots, using a 300gr Parker Ballistic Extreme, 57grns N120, and MMP short black sabots were touching each other. The 3rd shot was about 4 inches away from the other two?? I took an additional 9 shots uses different bullet/powder/sabot combinations and nothing grouped well at all-inches apart. At that point it was clear that I was just wasting my time and supplies. I took the gun in an took out the breech plug- I saw the source of the problem (or what I believe was the source of the problem)- my vent liner had become loose- I had put some anti-seize on it, just as I always do, but for whatever reason it was backed out far enough that I could simply take it out with my fingers. Now, that being said, I am using a Badger Ridge vent liner which is domed instead of the factory flat liner, which allowed me to unscrew it with my fingers. I have also had loose breech plugs in the past. This leads me to the question: what kind of anti-seize are you guys using on your ML II plugs and vent liners?? I never had this issue until this year- but the plug was loose at the end of both the 2020 and 2021 hunting seasons. Vent liner wasn't loose until yesterday. I had been using CVA anti-seize or Knight anti-seize. After cleaning yesterday, I put Knight anti-seize on both the vent liner and breech plug and tightened the hell out of each. Suggestions at this point?

 

[smokeeter]

sorry you're having so much difficulty with this gun, these Savages are finicky. When I was using the stock .50 cal I had great results with most 300 grain bullets and either the short mmp blk sabot or Harvesters and 65 grs of 4198. I suspect the problem might be the barrel warming up too much and deforming the sabots. This seems evident with the first two shots close and the 3 rd a flyer. I always made it a practice to wait a min of 15 mins between shots.
Just for the sake of argument, try this out of a cold bore over a couple of days before you give up entirely, I know it isn't always convenient to do so. You might also want to try bore sized bullets like Thors to eliminate the heat issues.

 

[Harley469]

sorry you're having so much difficulty with this gun, these Savages are finicky. When I was using the stock .50 cal I had great results with most 300 grain bullets and either the short mmp blk sabot or Harvesters and 65 grs of 4198. I suspect the problem might be the barrel warming up too much and deforming the sabots. This seems evident with the first two shots close and the 3 rd a flyer. I always made it a practice to wait a min of 15 mins between shots.
Just for the sake of argument, try this out of a cold bore over a couple of days before you give up entirely, I know it isn't always convenient to do so. You might also want to try bore sized bullets like Thors to eliminate the heat issues.

I can assure you the barrel being hot isn't an issue- was about 15 degrees yesterday, and I waited 10 minutes between shots, but thanks for the advice- I would have suggested the same.

 

[billyboy*]

Not sure anyone mentioned this, is your Front Sight Base touching the Recoil Lug?
Also some of the SS barreled 10ML-IIs were extremely rough. Might want to Polish it with Ultra Fine “White” Scotchbrite.
Hopefully you have ruled out the scope