Some Difficulty Getting My Savage ML II to Group Well

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I have a big problem with people that shoot paper . I have witnessed this many times in the past . Paper shooters are usually great because they shoot under perfect conditions at inanimate objects . Police shoot great at a qualifying range . The real problem arises when the intended target has a heartbeat & might be shooting back . Confusion sets in & all that range training goes out the window . Great trap & skeet shooters have difficulty in killing a limit of doves . The heartbeat survival factor kicks in high gear . Adrenaline & nerves have a lot to do with hitting a target as well as the fear factor . My shooting skills & target acquisition skills kick into high gear & my need to take out a threat to my survival peak . Breathing heartbeat squeezing temperature wind direction elevation & the 3 second rule plus a well fitting weapon tuned to me . All these factors have saved my life in a combat situation as well as putting food on the table .
 
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This is my dee hunting rifle . 200 yard target included . 300 grain Nosler polymer tip orange MMP sabot federal 215 gold medal primer 62.5 grains of VV N120
 

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This is my dee hunting rifle . 200 yard target included . 300 grain Nosler polymer tip orange MMP sabot federal 215 gold medal primer 62.5 grains of VV N120
Very nice- so this is what BAWS did for your stock Savage? I will have to look into the 300gr Noslers, I didn't even realize Nosler sold bullets, I always thought they strictly made ammunition.
 

Ninering62

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As you already know: All vent liners are not created equal. The current Lehigh (that we sell) is 17-4 stainless and heat treated/carbonited. Vastly superior to the old style Savages: Should give double or triple the life of the original black ones if not even more... Have plenty of folks (shooting blackhorn209) that report 300 plus shots and still can't get a .036 ZZ pin gage through our 17-4 Stainless Lehigh vent liners. At $5.25 each with as many as you want shipped for $7.00 against the cost of a new breech plug with bushing... Are you so sure its worth it for most folks to go with a new breech plug that has a bushing? I'm not convinced.

Yes loads, pressures, cleaning habits, primer choice (due to varying heat and amounts of ground glass in the priming compound) all affect vent/bushing/flash hole erosion/life. Whether its a vent liner or carbide bushing...

If I was shooting a rifle every weekend and/or shooting matches with it, then I see the advantage of a carbide bushing: long life and huge periods without measurement/maintenance would be very beneficial there. In that case one could even shoot enough to show that the bushing saved $... but I think the bushing is just a smart move for folks who shoot so much they could wear a vent out in a day or two of shooting. And that is a small portion of shooters.

But for most of us who are just hunting and playing with loads to get our gear ready to hunt, again, I'm not convinced a bushing is better than a vent liner. Seems like the simple effective solution is just getting good vent liners (like our Lehigh's) and a pin gage and checking the flash hole size every time one does maintenance. They'll probably last a few seasons before most folks get enough shots on them to replace them... and the replacement is cheap, especially if you buy in bulk.

My .02 USD... who am I as a guy who sells stuff to challenge a super user/mod/admin on the forum, with a different perspective?

Tom
Awesome post Tom. Thanks for all the info & insight. I sure can't argue with your logic.
 

Ninering62

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Many of us use teflon tape on our breech plug's threads instead of anti-seize grease. Seals well. Prevents BP from sticking, and doesn't flow like grease does into the action (pressure from shooting can push anti-seize grease backwards and into the action). Also reduces the chance of getting grease in the area where you are putting powder... which tends to make a mess if you can manage to get it burning... or can make it hard to get the powder burning if its mixed with grease...
I've been using the red or blue marine bearing grease ( just a tiny smidge )on my BP's for a while now. I use to use anti seize, but I'm as bad with that as a child around wet paint I swear. I have yet to notice any issues from the tiny bit of grease, but after reading your post I learned a few new things & I think its time to simply use the Teflon tape. It just makes sense across the board with no downside issues. Thank you
 

HV-Muzzleloaders

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I've been using the red or blue marine bearing grease ( just a tiny smidge )on my BP's for a while now. I use to use anti seize, but I'm as bad with that as a child around wet paint I swear. I have yet to notice any issues from the tiny bit of grease, but after reading your post I learned a few new things & I think its time to simply use the Teflon tape. It just makes sense across the board with no downside issues. Thank you
My dad was a plumber who used the old galvanized screw pipe. Over the years some of the joints would seem to be almost grown together with rust. The telfon tape eliminates that problem, because it is basically inert.
 

BadgerRidge

Simple Effective Solutions
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I've been using the red or blue marine bearing grease ( just a tiny smidge )on my BP's for a while now. I use to use anti seize, but I'm as bad with that as a child around wet paint I swear. I have yet to notice any issues from the tiny bit of grease, but after reading your post I learned a few new things & I think its time to simply use the Teflon tape. It just makes sense across the board with no downside issues. Thank you
One possible bad downside comes from using too much tape: your Breech Plug may not seat fully (ie metal to metal)... so only use the minimum amount of tape needed to affect a seal and prevent the BP from sticking. A backed out breech plug becomes a major issue on guns that head space and seal primer.
 
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UPDATE:
Shot my ML II yesterday with everything cleaned and tightened. Shooting from a bag rest at 100yrds. I used 57grns of N120 powder for all shots and Federal 209A primers. Bullets used were 300gr Barnes Original Spitzers, 300gr Fury Stars, 300gr Parker Ballistic Extremes. Waited a approximately 5 minutes between every shot, running two dry patches down the barrel between shots. I shot the Barnes first and got a 1 1/2 inch group, shot the Furys second and improved to a 1 inch group. Shot the Parkers last and the groups just fell apart completely- 1st shot was just below the bullseye, second shot was 6 inches below that, and the 3rd shot was an inch below the second. I should have taken some more shots with the Barnes and Furys to see if they were off at that point, but didn't have time (my wife wanted to take a nap and didn't want me doing anymore shooting). Let the gun sit overnight inside the house and took out the breech plug this morning- it was in good and tight, as well as the new Badger Ridge vent liner. I am at a complete loss as to why the group of Parkers fell apart. I have shot plenty of them before out of the gun and not had those issues. I am going to clean everything out again, and really put the gun through its paces when I have plenty of time to do so. I like to run these tests in the cold since it doesn't take long for the barrel to cool down. I am very tempted to get a new vent liner from Arrowhead and go that route with LMRPrimers. I don't know if crud is quickly building up inside the breech plug, but to get 6 nice shots, and then have 3 just crazy I am lost. I will say that those 3 shots with the Parkers were all on the same vertical line (don't know if that means anything), just continued to drop. Any advice from those of you out there is welcome. Thanks.
 
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HV-Muzzleloaders

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UPDATE:
Shot my ML II yesterday with everything cleaned and tightened. Shooting from a bag rest at 100yrds. I used 57grns of N120 powder for all shots. Bullets used were 300gr Barnes Original Spitzers, 300gr Fury Stars, 300gr Parker Ballistic Extremes. Waited a approximately 5 minutes between every shot, running two dry patches down the barrel between shots. I shot the Barnes first and got a 1 1/2 inch group, shot the Furys second and improved to a 1 inch group. Shot the Parkers last and the groups just fell apart completely- 1st shot was just below the bullseye, second shot was 6 inches below that, and the 3rd shot was an inch below the second. I should have taken some more shots with the Barnes and Furys to see if they were off at that point, but didn't have time (my wife wanted to take a nap and didn't want me doing anymore shooting). Let the gun sit overnight inside the house and took out the breech plug this morning- it was in good and tight, as well as the new Badger Ridge vent liner. I am at a complete loss as to why the group of Parkers fell apart. I have shot plenty of them before out of the gun and not had those issues. I am going to clean everything out again, and really put the gun through its paces when I have plenty of time to do so. I like to run these tests in the cold since it doesn't take long for the barrel to cool down. I am very tempted to get a new vent liner from Arrowhead and go that route with LMRPrimers. I don't know if crud is quickly building up inside the breech plug, but to get 6 nice shots, and then have 3 just crazy I am lost. I will say that those 3 shots with the Parkers were all on the same vertical line (don't know if that means anything), just continued to drop. Any advice from those of you out there is welcome. Thanks.
At this point I would suspect something is loose in the scope mount, or something is loose inside the scope.

Also, make sure the screws are tight which attach the stock to the action.

Have you tried a different scope?
 
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At this point I would suspect something is loose in the scope mount, or something is loose inside the scope.

Also, make sure the screws are tight which attach the stock to the action.

Have you tried a different scope?
Scope is on my list of suspects. I know the screws are all tight
Box test the scope with the Fury bullets. If it tracks, it eliminates possible scope problems.
Yeah, I can do that, will just take me some time to take the shots (waiting for barrel to cool). What would your recommendation be for barrel cooling time with a temp of around 35 degrees? I have plenty of cardboard and bullseye stickers.
 

ENCORE50A

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Scope is on my list of suspects. I know the screws are all tight

Yeah, I can do that, will just take me some time to take the shots (waiting for barrel to cool). What would your recommendation be for barrel cooling time with a temp of around 35 degrees? I have plenty of cardboard and bullseye stickers.
5 minutes or so.
 
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UPDATE: Got time to do some serious shooting today with my Savage. A possibility occurred to me: "What if a certain amount of fouling needs to build up before I can shoot consistent groups". Long story short, my first 4 shots all went drastically vertical, dropping from the top of my 12 inch target to off the paper at the bottom with the 3rd and 4th shots. Was using 57grns of N120 with a 300gr Fury Star Tip (non polymer), with short black MMP sabot. My 5th shot was about 2 inches below the bullseye, and the next 4 were either in the bull, or right next to it. I fired several more shots with the same results. So, I can only conclude that my theory was correct?? Have any of you experienced this with your Savage, or any muzzleloader for that matter. I have always taken 1 shot to foul the barrel and then it was good to go. I keep trying to upload the pics but cant for some reason. Thoughts??
 

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