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Muley Hunter

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Like "My Line" do ya ??? Of course , as for a good woman , i Didnt put it Quite Like That......Glag you liked it BUT You Really Need to come up with Your Own Logic muley . Take the Hint .

A guns a bit different .

No idea what you're talking about? My post came from me and I don't see a post in this thread you made before mine.

Stop thinking it's all about you.
 

GM54-120

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skip the traditions and have matt avance build you a real rifle. tough to get excited about the italian rifles these days when you can get a handmade semi-custom for about the same price.
The vast majority of Traditions aka Ardesa are Spanish. All the inlines are Spanish. A few of the really expensive sidelocks are not. The few Italian made rifles they sell are pretty nice too but not $900 nice IMO.
 

n8dawg6

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Dec 4, 2005
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The vast majority of Traditions aka Ardesa are Spanish. All the inlines are Spanish. A few of the really expensive sidelocks are not. The few Italian made rifles they sell are pretty nice too but not $900 nice IMO.
good point. the CVAs were(are) also spanish. i still remember the first muzzleloader i bought, a CVA. i got into them after shooting my uncle’s TC new englander. it shot but dang, i was pretty disappointed in the quality difference.

from what i can tell the current inline CVAs/bergaras have come a long way.
 

Bruce Mattes

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Feb 15, 2020
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644
The problem I see with European "copies" (using that term very lightly) of American black powder civilian percussion and flintlock sidelock weapons of the 18th, 19th, and early 20th Century is this......

They seem to have been created by clumsy, half-blind, engineers whose only resource was copies of pictures in outdated books made on a worn out copier with extremely poor resolution.

In other words, the designers had only the vaguest idea what each gun in their line up was supposed to look like.

And, while the barrels coming from Europe are of the highest quality, due to their proofing standards; the quality of things like breech plugs, drums, nipples, tennons, pins, wedges, sights, nosecaps, ramrod pipes, ramrods, triggerguards, butt plates, etc., can vary from quite good to extremely poor.

Workmanship is of average quality, at best; with an occasional very good quality gun sneaking through. Most breech plugs cannot be removed, so repurposing a barrel means cutting off the offending breach plug and re-threading the breech. Drums, and their clean-out screws, are usually so tightly installed that heroic measures are called for in order to remove them.

Inletting runs from poor to average.

The geometry of a flintlock has to be correct in order for it to function properly for a lifetime of use. A properly hardened frizzen made from the correct type of steel will last for at least 10,000 shots, perhaps as many as 25,000.

Not so the ones coming from Europe.

Most of the good locksmiths over on our sister forum, or at ALR, won touch the flintlocks on these rifles. They just have too many things wrong with them right from the factory to make it worth their while trying to bring them up to snuff.

And, you REALLY HAVE TO ASK YOURSELF WHY????????

With the VAST MAJORITY of high quality locks residing in European collections, and museums; why are the Italian and Spanish m-l gun manufacturers turning out such amateurish, poorly working, copies of flintlocks for their guns?

When the American small business owners, with exponentially fewer resources at hand, have been able to bring to market for at least 25 years; flintlocks with proper geometry that once tuned will last for decade after decade, with only minimal upkeep, and repair.

And in the past 2 years, we have seen 3 new CNC machined flintlocks come onto the market that will rival the best that ever came out of Europe in the late flintlock era.
 

GM54-120

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Pedersoli makes some nice sidelocks. The Missouri River Hawkens is a fine example of what they can make. 50cal 1-24 twist Its a shame the 45cal is a 1-47 and not a 1-20. :(

Pedersoli has some of the strictest proof testing you will find from any vendor anywhere. They voluntarily exceed the requirements for Italy and the CIP.
 

Bruce Mattes

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Feb 15, 2020
Messages
644
Pedersoli makes some nice sidelocks. The Missouri River Hawkens is a fine example of what they can make. 50cal 1-24 twist Its a shame the 45cal is a 1-47 and not a 1-20. :(

Pedersoli has some of the strictest proof testing you will find from any vendor anywhere. They voluntarily exceed the requirements for Italy and the CIP.
You are correct about Pedersoli's high end guns. Their percussion locks leave nothing to be desired. Their Mortimer guns, while not strict copies, function very well, as well as look sleek. Their long range percussion rifles REGULARLY WIN TROPHIES & MEDALS against custom guns.

It is the less expensive weapons that start you questioning their design staff. Did they EVER DO THEIR DUE DILIGENCE, and come to the USA to visit museums (Buffalo Bill Museum)(Museum of the Trade Gun), attend the large muzzleloading shows (CLA?); and get permission to handle real trade guns, Hawken rifles, the various schools of Eastern USA Kentucky/Pennsylvania rifles?

When you get the chance to handle the real thing (Hawken rifle, Tennessee rifle, both percussion), as well as have owned GOOD copies of flintlock long rifles (3); and then handled the offerings from Europe, you can begin to understand just what those offerings lack.

The above Missouri River Hawken is currently THE BEST production Hawken rifle available on the market. It costs well over a thousand dollars.

And, sad to say, it can't hold a candle to an original Hawken, nor a very close modern copy of one.

A modern bench copy of a J.& S. Hawken, or Sam Hawken, percussion, half-stock, iron-mounted, plains rifle by one of the half-dozen builders that truly KNOWS how to build one, will set you back at least $5K-$6K.

NONE OF THE PARTS AVAILABLE TO PURCHASE TODAY FOR BUILDING A HAWKEN RIFLE, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE BARREL, WILL WORK WITHOUT EXTENSIVE MODIFICATIONS TO MATCH WHAT THE HAWKEN BROS. PRODUCED IN ST. LOUIS.

So the builder makes those mods, or makes the part from scratch.

A real Hawken butt plate, or trigger guard, was made in 2 parts, and brazed together with brass. You could see the brass joint after the part was case hardened.

Butt plates, trigger guards, beavertail tangs, lock plates, nose cap, and the oval escutcheon plates were bone charcoal color case hardened.

All screws were fire blued.

The barrel, snail drum hooked breech plug, triggers, rear sight, wedge key underlugs, and wedge keys were antique rust blued (not browned).

The front sight was a copper base with a coin silver blade soldered into place.

The stock was PLAIN MAPLE, WITH NO CURL. That's right, NO CURL. A true Hawken was a working rifle, not a display piece. The wood was stained as dark as maple could be, usually with aqua fortis. Then finished with several coats of dark-tinted VARNISH. Then the entire rifle was rubbed back to a non-reflective, matte finish.

A Hawken rifle was a premium rifle that cost a years pay, back in the day.

The best production Hawkens to date were the Green River Rifle Works ones that DOC White, and his team of men & women built. And they weren't perfect. But, they were very good, and bring premium prices on the used market today, usually in excess of $2K.
 
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Bruce Mattes

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644
The other thing to remember about a close copy of a Hawken is that they are a young man's, or a very fit & strong older man's rifle.

A .54 caliber × 36" long × 1 1/8" at the breech, tapering to 1 1/16" at the muzzle barrel (a very typical barrel profile) is going to produce a rifle that weighs every bit of 12 pounds (a very typical weight).

These were rifles meant to be carried primarily on horseback, NOT ON FOOT. AND, WHEN ON FOOT FOR ANY LENGTH OF TIME, BY TOUGH, TOUGH MOUNTAIN MEN!!

There was a compelling reason they weighed so much. They were one of the first American rifles to employ large powder charges in excess of 100 grains of black powder.

Shoot that Missouri River Hawken with a 140 grain powder charge, and see what your shoulder/bicep says!!!

Shoot the same powder charge in a rifle weighing 3 pounds more, and your shoulder/bicep will thank you heartily.
 
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Idaholewis

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Jun 30, 2017
Messages
5,235
Pedersoli makes some nice sidelocks. The Missouri River Hawkens is a fine example of what they can make. 50cal 1-24 twist Its a shame the 45cal is a 1-47 and not a 1-20. :(
I’m with ya GM54, The .45 Cal Missouri River Hawken 1-47 Twist Rate BUMS Me Out! Being a Dedicated Bullet Guy, That 1-47 Just doesn’t Fancy me in the least. I can’t figure out What Pedersoli was thinking on this one? Why not go one way or the other? 1-20 to 1-28 For Bullets, or 1-66 For Roundball, Why go with an in Between “Compromise” Twist on such a Fine, High End Sidelock???

They have the .50 Cal Missouri River Hawken Twist Rate RIGHT ON the Button for Bullet Guys, But I’m MUCH more of a .45 Guy

The Pedersoli Tryon is one that i would LOVE to tinker With, .45 Cal, 1-21 Twist :lewis:
 

Squint

Squint
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Feb 4, 2020
Messages
43
The problem I see with European "copies" (using that term very lightly) of American black powder civilian percussion and flintlock sidelock weapons of the 18th, 19th, and early 20th Century is this......

They seem to have been created by clumsy, half-blind, engineers whose only resource was copies of pictures in outdated books made on a worn out copier with extremely poor resolution.

In other words, the designers had only the vaguest idea what each gun in their line up was supposed to look like.

And, while the barrels coming from Europe are of the highest quality, due to their proofing standards; the quality of things like breech plugs, drums, nipples, tennons, pins, wedges, sights, nosecaps, ramrod pipes, ramrods, triggerguards, butt plates, etc., can vary from quite good to extremely poor.

Workmanship is of average quality, at best; with an occasional very good quality gun sneaking through. Most breech plugs cannot be removed, so repurposing a barrel means cutting off the offending breach plug and re-threading the breech. Drums, and their clean-out screws, are usually so tightly installed that heroic measures are called for in order to remove them.

Inletting runs from poor to average.

The geometry of a flintlock has to be correct in order for it to function properly for a lifetime of use. A properly hardened frizzen made from the correct type of steel will last for at least 10,000 shots, perhaps as many as 25,000.

Not so the ones coming from Europe.

Most of the good locksmiths over on our sister forum, or at ALR, won touch the flintlocks on these rifles. They just have too many things wrong with them right from the factory to make it worth their while trying to bring them up to snuff.

And, you REALLY HAVE TO ASK YOURSELF WHY????????

With the VAST MAJORITY of high quality locks residing in European collections, and museums; why are the Italian and Spanish m-l gun manufacturers turning out such amateurish, poorly working, copies of flintlocks for their guns?

When the American small business owners, with exponentially fewer resources at hand, have been able to bring to market for at least 25 years; flintlocks with proper geometry that once tuned will last for decade after decade, with only minimal upkeep, and repair.

And in the past 2 years, we have seen 3 new CNC machined flintlocks come onto the market that will rival the best that ever came out of Europe in the late flintlock era.
Hi Bruce.
I thought I should mention another side of the coin. For every rifle that I own, there seems to be a better manufactured one someplace. My old 270 pump was just a common Remington 760, and my very best 22 pump was a secondhand Winchester in 1962. I don't doubt that the flintlocks manufactured here in America are superior to whatever you can buy anywhere else in the world. Yet, like many I approached the flintlock era at my retirement party when I turned 65, and I knew that my best hunting days were behind me. No more am I shooting 300 rounds a year between two or three calibers, but now I'm shooting 50 round balls a year, perhaps at one or two deer or antelope and the rest punching paper. My flints last probably 15 shots. Maybe a few more after I dress them. My frizzen seems adequately hard but I've had to case harden it twice now in 17 years. The flintlock that I use is a Lyman deerstalker, cost about $235 new. I collected enough gifts at my retirement party to purchase the rifle. Back when I turned 50, my kids went together and purchased me a TC percussion left hand kit which I really enjoyed, except it's too darn heavy for me to shoot offhand anymore. I buy a Dixie gun book every two years and drool over the nice rifles. I couldn't afford one 17 years ago and it would be pointless to do so now.
I'm sure many on this website own a better rifle than I do, but mine works pretty good, and I'm really impressed by all the knowledge that others have given me on this website and two others.
I actually broke down in February and bought a new traditions, very light percussion rifle that weighs 5 3/4 pounds. It was either do that or give up hunting game because even my flintlock is to heavy anymore to be shot off hand with much accuracy. It cost $10 less than my flintlock did that many years ago. The darn thing really works well, without much trouble I can get an inch and a quarter group with three shots at 50 yards over a good rest. I did have to put on a peep to do it.
I'm sure there's others like me, who enjoy some very plain firearms.
Squint
 

Bruce Mattes

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Joined
Feb 15, 2020
Messages
644
Hi Bruce.
I thought I should mention another side of the coin. For every rifle that I own, there seems to be a better manufactured one someplace. My old 270 pump was just a common Remington 760, and my very best 22 pump was a secondhand Winchester in 1962. I don't doubt that the flintlocks manufactured here in America are superior to whatever you can buy anywhere else in the world. Yet, like many I approached the flintlock era at my retirement party when I turned 65, and I knew that my best hunting days were behind me. No more am I shooting 300 rounds a year between two or three calibers, but now I'm shooting 50 round balls a year, perhaps at one or two deer or antelope and the rest punching paper. My flints last probably 15 shots. Maybe a few more after I dress them. My frizzen seems adequately hard but I've had to case harden it twice now in 17 years. The flintlock that I use is a Lyman deerstalker, cost about $235 new. I collected enough gifts at my retirement party to purchase the rifle. Back when I turned 50, my kids went together and purchased me a TC percussion left hand kit which I really enjoyed, except it's too darn heavy for me to shoot offhand anymore. I buy a Dixie gun book every two years and drool over the nice rifles. I couldn't afford one 17 years ago and it would be pointless to do so now.
I'm sure many on this website own a better rifle than I do, but mine works pretty good, and I'm really impressed by all the knowledge that others have given me on this website and two others.
I actually broke down in February and bought a new traditions, very light percussion rifle that weighs 5 3/4 pounds. It was either do that or give up hunting game because even my flintlock is to heavy anymore to be shot off hand with much accuracy. It cost $10 less than my flintlock did that many years ago. The darn thing really works well, without much trouble I can get an inch and a quarter group with three shots at 50 yards over a good rest. I did have to put on a peep to do it.
I'm sure there's others like me, who enjoy some very plain firearms.
Squint
I know exactly what you are saying here. I will turn 66 in 7 days. I have osteoarthritis that represents itself primarily in my shoulders.

As I return to m-l, I am faced with the terrible decision of not returning at all in order to preserve my shoulder joints (Doctors reccommendations); or shooting a handgun as an alternative.

The CVA Optima V2 pistol is the only low cost option for someone that wants to have the widest range of options at their disposal as far as hunting is concerned.

As Mr. Tom mentioned in another thread here, these pistols seldom come onto the used market, and I was quite fortunate to walk into my trade with forum member Mt. Monkey for mine.

The modifications that I am using stimulus money to pay for are all aimed at reducing recoil for any bullet weight fired, as well as long term shootability as I age. If GOD allows, I am trying to look ahead into my 70's and 80's as far as hunting is concerned.

The pistol will have a dual pistol grip DOC White set of Javelina stock's. The stock's will have GrovTec flush, push button sling swivel bases. The forearm will have a Spartan Precision Equipment, flush, rare earth magnet/brass, gunsmith adapter for a Spartan Sentinel combination monopod/walking stick/bipod/tripod.

D-ring sling swivels combined with a tactical 1 pt./2 pt. sling will allow for both carry, and shooting support options.

A LR Customs MZ-REX 2, .50 caliber, black powder muzzle brake will attenuate recoil.

If all the mods work the way they are supposed to, I will have a pistol to shoot well into my 70's. If not, then I gave it my best.

Like you, I could not envision myself carrying a 8-12 pound rifle around into the future. And, that was before ole osteo stuck his nasty head into my affairs. There are not very many sub-7 pound AFFORDABLE choices when it comes to long arms. Custom guns, yes. Commercial guns, no.

This pistol, all up; with Leapers UTG 2-7×32mm scope, Warne steel 2-pc. bases, Warne Weaver Q-D lever rings, Javelina stocks, GrovTec D-ring push button sling swivels, Magtech Tactical 2pc/1pc sling, and MZ-REX 2 muzzle brake should weigh in at approximately 4.5 pounds, perhaps less.

That is a weight that I think I can handle well into the future carried in some form of cross-draw holster, or slung tightly across the chest.

Good luck with your rifle choices going forward. Getting old sucks, but it SURE BEATS THE ALTERNATIVE!!!!!!!!!

Bruce
 

Bruce Mattes

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Feb 15, 2020
Messages
644
Have you given thought as to how your gonna drag out a big deer when the time comes?
I have. There are multiple ways a single, aging hunter can use to break down a deer by himself to get it processed as quickly as possible, so as to retain the best flavor of the meat.

Ultimately, friendship with other like minded hunters (same age)(younger) who can share the labor, and the rewards, is the way to go.
 

toytruck

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May 22, 2005
Messages
2,584
I only hunt within a several hundred yards of my truck these days. Killed two does sitting in front of the truck last season. I used a deer cart to get the heavy ones out an loaded up. Butchered three myself. Getting older isn't for Sissy's for sure!
 
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