Taper design bullets (TC Maxi Type)

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Idaholewis

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Just figured i would share something i witnessed yesterday. First off REMEMBER bullet fit comes down to a Per Bore Basis, What fits good and tight in 1 bore Might not in another, or could even be tighter in another rifle. Again, not all bores are the same, KNOW YOUR BORE :yeah:

My Dad has been hunting with his TC Renegade in .54 Cal Trying to fill his Doe Tag, He is Using my Lyman Plains bullets from my Mold, Lubed and sized to .542 (they shoot LIGHTS OUT good in his Stock .54, all the way out to 200 yards) The bullets start good in his Bore, They Hold the Bore good and Snug til about 3/4 of the Way down, then they get a bit “Mooshy” and go easy the rest of the way, this is even using my 1-40 Alloy. But Remember the Lyman Plains Bullet is a Tapered design just like a TC Maxi ball, The bottom Bands are underbore size for ease in loading And the Top band is slightly overbore to engage the Rifling, So only the Top band is Holding the Bore (What is happening is The Top “Driving Band” is breaking down from being pushed down the Bore, the Softer the Lead, the worse this will be) I was out cutting a load of firewood yesterday and i Ran in to my Dad on my way off the Hill, he was done hunting and had decided to Discharge his Rifle so he could go home and Clean it (his gun has been loaded and Carried for a Week) I decided to do a Quick test before he Fired it, i checked the bullet with the Rifles Ramrod to make sure the Bullet had NOT Backed off of the powder Charge? It HAD! It was off the powder about 2” or So. I pushed the Bullet back Down Tight against the Powder, Then took my Rubber floor matt out of my Truck and flopped it on the Ground, I took his rifle and gave it a “Bump” Test, about a 10-12” Drop on to the Rubber Matt, and then Checked it again, this time the Bullet slid nearly halfway up the Bore, NOT GOOD!!

Some may remember I started a thread here back when I joined this forum asking how to correct a Soft Lead bullet that Loosens up about 1/2 to 3/4 of the way down the Bore? I got a few responses, but NOBODY on here had a Solution? Me being me, i set out to Correct this problem, I was able Correct this By Using a Little harder Alloy (1-40 Alloy to be exact) But this is with my Custom GG bullets from Molds i had made with ALL oversize bands (YEP, they were loosening as well with Pure soft lead!) By going to the 1-40 Alloy i FULLY Corrected the Problem above, All of My Bullets are Lubed and sized per Bore, with 1-40 Alloy They Start GOOD AND SNUG and Stay that way all the way to the powder, They will NOT budge until you pull the trigger! But i have not played around much with the Taper designed Bullets such as this Lyman Plains, and the TC Maxi balls, But I do remember they held ok in my Old Stainless .50, and a few others. Again, this really comes down to a “Per Bore” Basis as I mentioned in the Start of the Thread. This might not happen in your Particular Bore? But be aware, it CAN

Moral of the Story, If you are using Tapered design bullets such as the TC Maxi Ball, Lee R.E.A.L., and this Lyman Plains, You might want to check your bullet now and then :yeah: they can DEFINITELY slide off of the Powder Charge. So far Every rifle i have Tested (SEVERAL) With a Soft lead Taper design bullet has gotten “Mooshy” About 1/2 to 3/4 of the Way down the Bore. Something to ponder
 
Wow that is very interesting for bullet shooters something to watch I found with the no excuse bullets they do it the guy the makes them says he makes them that way I told him that can be dangerous he said to keep check on them with your ram rod needless to say after testing a few i never used them have two boxes and I won't touch them. I don't cast my own so I stick with patch round ball they don't move. Glad your dad didn't fire the rifle that way.
 
A Bulged barrel can most definitely happen, it is NOT something to take lightly. This is why i have Worked DILIGENTLY on Bullet fit in all of my Rifles, I have a Video explaining the importance of it with Paper Patch bullets and How to Fix it, But Same applies to Grease Groove Bullets. I have read several instances of Bulged barrels

here is 1 example.

I was shooting 460 grain no excuses. Using triple 7 fffg. There was a " stickiness in the barrel" Had to really work em down the tube. Then they got easier to pass. They were grouping awfully. Switched to a power belt 395 grain. Shot two they grouped a little under 2.5 inches at 100 yards. Started to load number 3 and noticed the bulge...about 7 inches from the muzzel?

Thompson center offers a lifetime guarantee I believe. I think the barrel developed a crud ring at the bulge. I was at my cabin and did not bring my full cleaning kit and against my better judgement kept shooting. Then the bullets began to load EASY. But the groups were horrible. I switched to the powerbelts, those two grouped and I was preparing to load a third to confirm final sight adjustment and noticed the bulge. It must be karma from my years of slandering powerbelts that got me. But I would guess the injury to the barrel happened the shot prior to it getting easy to load.

Agreed. Totally my fault! It is the old haste makes waste that spanked me. My fault.The powerbelts instructions actually discuss the need to monitor crud rings when shooting triple 7. They recommend wet patching bore between shots which I failed to follow. The incredible deal is the accuracy the powerbelts exhibited even out of a barrel that was so severely damaged.
 
From a Bench (99.9% of my shooting) I have shot my Lead Bullets Sized to Bore, and just slightly under, they will literally Slide down the barrel with just the Weight of my Range Rod, Some of the Best Groups i have Shot load like this (Tip from Lee Shaver’s) BUT Shooting from my bench is a VERY Controlled environment that i have complete control of, and can easily keep track of. It is a WHOLE different ball game when i Hunt, i want my Bullets to Load GOOD N TIGHT all the way down my Bores til they Stop on the Powder Charge. In a Rifle i am Hunting with, i want to know for ABSOLUTE sure that my Bullet will not BUDGE unless i ask it to :yeah:
 
Idaholewis said:
A Bulged barrel can most definitely happen, it is NOT something to take lightly. This is why i have Worked DILIGENTLY on Bullet fit in all of my Rifles, I have a Video explaining the importance of it with Paper Patch bullets and How to Fix it, But Same applies to Grease Groove Bullets. I have read several instances of Bulged barrels

here is 1 example.

I was shooting 460 grain no excuses. Using triple 7 fffg. There was a " stickiness in the barrel" Had to really work em down the tube. Then they got easier to pass. They were grouping awfully. Switched to a power belt 395 grain. Shot two they grouped a little under 2.5 inches at 100 yards. Started to load number 3 and noticed the bulge...about 7 inches from the muzzel?

Thompson center offers a lifetime guarantee I believe. I think the barrel developed a crud ring at the bulge. I was at my cabin and did not bring my full cleaning kit and against my better judgement kept shooting. Then the bullets began to load EASY. But the groups were horrible. I switched to the powerbelts, those two grouped and I was preparing to load a third to confirm final sight adjustment and noticed the bulge. It must be karma from my years of slandering powerbelts that got me. But I would guess the injury to the barrel happened the shot prior to it getting easy to load.

Agreed. Totally my fault! It is the old haste makes waste that spanked me. My fault.The powerbelts instructions actually discuss the need to monitor crud rings when shooting triple 7. They recommend wet patching bore between shots which I failed to follow. The incredible deal is the accuracy the powerbelts exhibited even out of a barrel that was so severely damaged.
Lewis that is why I gave up on no excuse because at the bench is good field work or hunting is a different creature which I do mostly scared me to much.
 
Good to know, thanks for posting! :shock: I'd wondered about that, when a bullet goes down so easily, the last bit.
 
Rlsmith said:
Lewis that is why I gave up on no excuse because at the bench is good field work or hunting is a different creature which I do mostly scared me to much.

Rl, No need to be scared of it, My reasoning for posting this was not to worry folks, just be Aware of it :yeah:

As a Non Caster, Getting good Snug Bullet fit can be much more of a Challenge than the Guy that Casts his own bullets. Most Conical bullets for Muzzleloaders that you buy from Stores are made of Pure lead and are a Tapered design like the TC Maxi Balls, Hornady Great Plains, etc, you simply “get what you get” They either fit ok, or they get “Mooshy” at some point down the Bore, and there just isn’t much you can do about it. As a Bullet Caster you have Control over this, You can have a Mold Made of Correct Diameter for your Particular Bore, And You can use a Harder Alloy like myself.
 
FredB said:
Good to know, thanks for posting! :shock: I'd wondered about that, when a bullet goes down so easily, the last bit.

Maxi Balls are horrible for it, Most all Taper design bullets are, especially when using Pure lead which most True Muzzleloader bullets are made of. The Driving Band “Breaks Down” as the bullet is being pushed down the Bore, The end result is a Bullet That nearly Falls to the Powder the last few inches. I have seen this a BUNCH! Even with bullets that are Largely oversize when poured of Pure Lead, The fix is to use a Harder Alloy, I absolutely swear by 1-40 at 8.5 BHN, it works VERY well to Combat the Above.

It would be AWESOME if outfits like No Excuse would offer the option of 1-40 Alloy poured bullets :yeah:
 
Intersting, my Alex Henry & Rigby original double percussion rifles shoot PP bullets (350gr HP over 100gr Swiss 2F). Slide down the bore just touching the lands and upon recoil - the other bullet never moves.
Makes since any undersize bullet would move.
 
52Bore said:
Intersting, my Alex Henry & Rigby original double percussion rifles shoot PP bullets (350gr HP over 100gr Swiss 2F). Slide down the bore just touching the lands and upon recoil - the other bullet never moves.
Makes since any undersize bullet would move.


I have wondered about the Double rifles? My Dad has an Old CVA Double barrel 12 Gauge Shotgun he bought new as a Kit years ago, He told me the very first thing he checked after firing it for the first time was the other Load in the Second barrel, He said it didn’t budge. Which really doesn’t make sense to me? Recoil is back at us, which in theory SHOULD push a Loose fitting bullet in the Second barrel Forward some, at least i would think it would? I would have a Hard time trusting it. I know a Hard Recoiling Revolver like a .44 Magnum with Full House loads, the Bullets MUST be “Roll Crimped” in the Cases. if not The bullets in the other Cylinders will back out of the Cases upon Recoil, causing the Gun to Lock/Bind up, i have personally seen this happen.

CVA Sidelock Warranty info
CAUTION: Be sure to choose the properly-sized bullet projectiles to achieve a precise fit for your particular rifle; the bullet must not slide off the powder charge. A bullet separated from the powder charge will create an obstruction which could damage the rifle and possibly cause harm to the shooter.
 
i have been away from here as well as casting as a whole. when you say 40-1.............. 40 of what and 1 of what.?
 
triggerhappy243 said:
i have been away from here as well as casting as a whole. when you say 40-1.............. 40 of what and 1 of what.?

Sean, That is Lead/Tin, I have never made it, I cheat and buy the Stamped Certified 1-40 already Made over at Buffalo Arms, I have tested the hardness with several different batches and it is true to it’s BHN of 8.5

1-40 Alloy is my all time Favorite stuff, It stil “Smear cuts” at the Sprue like Soft Lead, But this 1-40 makes a NIGHT N DAY difference in the Way the Bullet Holds the Bore.
 
Hello Idaholewis and MML experts. You stated above that the bullets seat with the weight of your range rod. What would you suggest as a great range rod? Thanks in advance!
 
Hello Idaholewis and MML experts. You stated above that the bullets seat with the weight of your range rod. What would you suggest as a great range rod? Thanks in advance!

Lot of good options :lewis: Here are the ones i use. The Stainless Rod on The Far left is a Lehigh Range Rod (I stil haven’t had a Chance to use this one) They are a VERY nice Range Rod, Ball bearing swivel handle, They have an adjustable Charge height indicator system that is Nice, They are a Spendy Rod, But you can see why. You can get this Rod With, and Without the Charge height indicator System

here is the Lehigh

https://sskfirearms.lehighdefense.com/all-products

The other 2 Black Rods with Yellow Ends are Treso Fiberglass Rods I got from Buffalo Arms Co. I have used the LIVING DAYLIGHTS out of these things, They are EXTREMELY Durable, and Cheap.

https://www.buffaloarms.com/treso-3...th-10-32-female-threaded-brass-tip-tre1191610
And the last 2 are Solid Brass Range Rods from October Country here in Hayden Idaho, They Work AWESOME to send down REALLY Tight Loads, The Heavy Weight of the Solid Brass Rod makes sending SUPER tight Patched Roundball down with EASE.

https://www.octobercountry.com/bench-ramrod-with-wood-handle-3-8-diameter-36-long/
The ones i use the ABSOLUTE Most are the Black Fiberglass Treso Rods, They come 48” inches long so you can cut them down to whatever Size you want? I like a 36” Range Rod, You want enough Hand Holding Space left with a Designated “Range/Cleaning Rod”

ygtBoi9.jpg
 
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I believe the issue is more of a tight spot in the bore. Lead is a dead metal. When copper is compressed, the is some slight spring back when the pressure is released. This is why with jackets bullets, its better to bump up than down. The lead keeps the copper in place. Bumping down, the core compresses and the copper springs back and can lead to loose cores.
Not so with lead. Once compressed, lead stays put.
Perhaps if a lap was made that only rode the lands, the tight spot could be removed. I have heard of this being done.
Absolutely a tapered design will be more problematic with such a bore.
 
I believe the issue is more of a tight spot in the bore. Lead is a dead metal. When copper is compressed, the is some slight spring back when the pressure is released. This is why with jackets bullets, its better to bump up than down. The lead keeps the copper in place. Bumping down, the core compresses and the copper springs back and can lead to loose cores.
Not so with lead. Once compressed, lead stays put.
Perhaps if a lap was made that only rode the lands, the tight spot could be removed. I have heard of this being done.
Absolutely a tapered design will be more problematic with such a bore.

If that’s the case, EVERY Muzzleloader Barrel i own has a Tight spot in it, And That’s about 30 Barrels (Maybe a few more?) You would think i would get a Good Concentric one out of that many?

What i am speaking of above is DEFINITELY NOT a ”Tight Spot” in the Bore issue.

The Problem is PURE SOFT LEAD Giving up, Stripping The “Driving Band” of these Tapered Bullets when being pushed through Rifling, about halfway down the Bore you can feel the Bullet get Easier, and Continually easier, Some of these might have enough resistance to stay put on the Powder? But MANY WON’T!! A HIGHLY Polished Bore helps some, But not Much. Now take this Same Bullet and Same Bore, Cast the Bullet of 1-40 Alloy, it will load Good & Tight All the way down the Bore, You won’t feel a Change, and this Bullet Cast of 1-40 Alloy WON’T Budge Off the Powder. Wonder why that is? :)

As I’ve said before, all Pure Lead is NOT Created equal, Pure Lead is given a WIDE Range of .015 to .035 on my Cabin Tree Lead Hardness tester. PURE Lead that Measures at the softest end (.015) will Strip out REALLY EASY when being pushed down a Rifled Bore, Whereas PURE Lead that Measures at the Harder end (.035) Will ”Hold” the Bore Fairly Well.
 
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If you do Have a Tight Spot somewhere in your Bore, and then it goes back to normal, This would definately make the Problem above Worse. But FACT is, It happens with PERFECTLY Concentric Bores as well. Again, Highly Polished Bores Help with this some, But not much. Back When i was having this Problem i had a Stash of PURE Plumbers Lead that was SUPER SOFT Stuff, At the Bottom of PURE Lead (.018-.020) When tested in my Lead Hardness Tester. On the Other hand, The Stamp Certified PURE Lead That i get from Buffalo Arms is on the Harder end at .031-.032 on my Lead Hardness Tester, Bullets Cast of this Harder PURE Lead Hold the Bore Fine
 
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