The White that never was……

[GregK]

Recently I picked up a very very clean 97 Whitetail Hunter in .410 caliber. A beautiful gun, very capable of harvesting deer cleanly & accurately, but it was never made.
At least not any regular production.

After talking with Doc he informed that these guns were only built in .451 & .504 and that there were never any production .410’s
He said that sometimes the guys in the shop built someone a custom order here & there that he really wasn’t aware of at the time.

I love gun history

The only flaw I can find on this gun is a tiny etching under the front scope base.
Now I have to decide, safe queen? Use it? Sell it?

Greg

 

[Sideshow]

Recently I picked up a very very clean 97 Whitetail Hunter in .410 caliber. A beautiful gun, very capable of harvesting deer cleanly & accurately, but it was never made.
At least not any regular production.

After talking with Doc he informed that these guns were only built in .451 & .504 and that there were never any production .410’s
He said that sometimes the guys in the shop built someone a custom order here & there that he really wasn’t aware of at the time.

I love gun history

The only flaw I can find on this gun is a tiny etching under the front scope base.
Now I have to decide, safe queen? Use it? Sell it?

Greg

View attachment 6852 View attachment 6853 View attachment 6854 View attachment 6855

Idk what your needs are but the 410 is really overlooked , ignored and unappreciated without it getting a fair shake . If your game laws allow you to hunt with it why not ?? Doc says it is easily the most accurate of all his production rifles . My super 91 410 is Definately Extremely Accurate and hits HARD !!! I named it "Mighty Whitey" and its Earned It !!!! The energy @200 yds is about the same with a 400gr vs a 451's 460gr , and thats also with a slower start fps . A 30--06 , according to Doc , with a 180gr bullet only betters the 410 AFTER 150yds !!! Thats No Slouch !!! Combined with the accuracy how ya gonna beat that easily ??? Doc shot 5 or 600yd silloette with his and often Won the Match !!! He also says its good enough for elk but i doubt anybody would allow it these days . Outfitters and Pro hunting camps PRIZED the 410 for deer !!!!! They didnt say that about the others . Personally i wouldnt just put in a safe and forget about it nor broom it . A really sweet find like that needs buddied up to i say !!! Treat it like the true gift it is and enjoy it in the woods and fields like it was meant to be !!!! Youll soon see , the 410 is a Dandy !!! Seems to me that for a rifle that was never supposed to be it sure has alot going for it . Special is , in part , what special does !!! Why turn your back on it now ???

 

[michiganmuzzy]

I think you should shoot it. Maybe not if it were new unfired in the box but thats a shooter for certain. I passed on a 410 white and i wish i had it now.
Congrats on a sweet gun. Someone on here once said, "guns are for buying, not selling"!

 

[bp45cal]

Whitetail hunter??longer barrel?

 

[GregK]

Whitetail hunter??longer barrel?

Yes, 26 inch barrel with optional dual ramrod thimbles

Greg

 

[GregK]

Idk what your needs are but the 410 is really overlooked , ignored and unappreciated without it getting a fair shake . If your game laws allow you to hunt with it why not ?? Doc says it is easily the most accurate of all his production rifles . My super 91 410 is Definately Extremely Accurate and hits HARD !!! I named it "Mighty Whitey" and its Earned It !!!! The energy @200 yds is about the same with a 400gr vs a 451's 460gr , and thats also with a slower start fps . A 30--06 , according to Doc , with a 180gr bullet only betters the 410 AFTER 150yds !!! Thats No Slouch !!! Combined with the accuracy how ya gonna beat that easily ??? Doc shot 5 or 600yd silloette with his and often Won the Match !!! He also says its good enough for elk but i doubt anybody would allow it these days . Outfitters and Pro hunting camps PRIZED the 410 for deer !!!!! They didnt say that about the others . Personally i wouldnt just put in a safe and forget about it nor broom it . A really sweet find like that needs buddied up to i say !!! Treat it like the true gift it is and enjoy it in the woods and fields like it was meant to be !!!! Youll soon see , the 410 is a Dandy !!! Seems to me that for a rifle that was never supposed to be it sure has alot going for it . Special is , in part , what special does !!! Why turn your back on it now ???

It’s legal here & that’s no problem. I know that 410 shooters & Doc all talk about the crazy accuracy of this caliber. More than plenty for Michigan Whitetails 200 & in.

I didn’t know about the rarity of the gun until I read Doc’s article on the WH’s. When he said they were only 451 & 504 I had to ask him about mine.
I hadn’t planned on selling it & don’t know or at this point think I will. I do get concerned about not saving something so rare.

I loved my 98 451 & I have a feeling that if I shoot this one I’ll love it even more.

I will have to get scope bases for her though.

Greg

 

[Sideshow]

It’s legal here & that’s no problem. I know that 410 shooters & Doc all talk about the crazy accuracy of this caliber. More than plenty for Michigan Whitetails 200 & in.

I didn’t know about the rarity of the gun until I read Doc’s article on the WH’s. When he said they were only 451 & 504 I had to ask him about mine.
I hadn’t planned on selling it & don’t know or at this point think I will. I do get concerned about not saving something so rare.

I loved my 98 451 & I have a feeling that if I shoot this one I’ll love it even more.

I will have to get scope bases for her though.

Greg

Hunt it and take good care of it while doing so is all it takes !!! Besides , save it for who ??? Thats like marrying the prettiest , virtueous girl in town and sleepin in seperate rooms forevermore !!!! Lol !!!! Good thing i spoke up eh ???? Lol !!! ---- Seriously , thats a doll of a gun , shes yours , and dont feel at bit bad for takin her where she was MEANT to be !!!!

 

[michiganmuzzy]

Hunt it and take good care of it while doing so is all it takes !!! Besides , save it for who ??? Thats like marrying the prettiest , virtueous girl in town and sleepin in seperate rooms forevermore !!!! Lol !!!! Good thing i spoke up eh ???? Lol !!! ---- Seriously , thats a doll of a gun , shes yours , and dont feel at bit bad for takin her where she was MEANT to be !!!!

You have a great with words! X2, what he said.

 

[chachi]

Cool gun.

 

[GM54-120]

40s are legal here for deer also. Its the final addition i want for my collection but i want to shoot conicals and sabotless jacketed. Always wondered what actual 40cal barrels Doc used. Such as was it a 416Rem CF dimension barrel?

1-16 for a 416 blank is not very common.

 

[Sideshow]

40s are legal here for deer also. Its the final addition i want for my collection but i want to shoot conicals and sabotless jacketed. Always wondered what actual 40cal barrels Doc used. Such as was it a 416Rem CF dimension barrel?

1-16 for a 416 blank is not very common.

My super 91 is a Wilson barrel GM54--120 . The bore measures .4095 with a starret small hole gauge then miked . I dont recall what Doc said for grooves iirc .003 or .0035 deep . Hope this helped . Youll love it when you get one !!! So far the best shooting conical ive tested is a 400gr .408pp hb knurled up to .411 to .412 (hunter280man suggested)and BLL lubed , and 90gr T7 3f . Want to try half a cotton ball under it as idaholewis suggested for hb but havent yet . It shoots !!! No leading either !!! Velocity ,Doc says , with 80gr of pyro p is 1313 and this is a heck of a lot hotter than that !!! Working on getting another chronograph so i will know for sure what i got now . But tbe rifle chose this load by accuracy as in 1 ragged hole @100yds .
I tbink theres room for hotter too . Thinkin that 200 yd 10" drop may just be extended a bit further out.......

Wouldnt suprise me if his were specially sized to his specs on those barrels . Especially for tbe .410 . I think Doc colors outside the lines a wee bit !!!

 

[GregK]

My super 91 is a Wilson barrel GM54--120 . The bore measures .4095 with a starret small hole gauge then miked . I dont recall what Doc said for grooves iirc .003 or .0035 deep . Hope this helped . Youll love it when you get one !!! So far the best shooting conical ive tested is a 400gr .408pp hb knurled up to .411 to .412 (hunter280man suggested)and BLL lubed , and 90gr T7 3f . Want to try half a cotton ball under it as idaholewis suggested for hb but havent yet . It shoots !!! No leading either !!! Velocity ,Doc says , with 80gr of pyro p is 1313 and this is a heck of a lot hotter than that !!! Working on getting another chronograph so i will know for sure what i got now . But tbe rifle chose this load by accuracy as in 1 ragged hole @100yds .
I tbink theres room for hotter too . Thinkin that 200 yd 10" drop may just be extended a bit further out.......

Wouldnt suprise me if his were specially sized to his specs on those barrels . Especially for tbe .410 . I think Doc colors outside the lines a wee bit !!!

Ok you lost me on the bullet you’re using. Can you fill me in? Doc recommended the 400gr but he doesn’t have any

Thanks, Greg

 

[Sideshow]

Ok you lost me on the bullet you’re using. Can you fill me in? Doc recommended the 400gr but he doesn’t have any

Thanks, Greg

That bullet is half bought/half customized by me . It is a paper patch bullet (no lube grooves) that ive knurled up over bore size for a tight fit . Loads pretty easy being knurled and a little tighter all the way down than slip fit . Being swedged pure lead there are no air gaps to cause unbalance in flight . HB stands for hollow base which is a small hemispherical void in its bottom . Its purpose is to help trap pressure by the outer edge being forced out against the barrel bore along with normal obtureation . The half a dry cotton ball should enhance sealing and protect the bullet base from melting like a wool wad does for a flat based bullet . Thinking i may lube it too with BLL so it ( cotton ) wont burn and start a fire possibly......
The BLL lube is a almost watery lube that dries up kinda leaving only a film . Cf rifle guys and pistols are using it for lube and NOT leading their barrels to 2500 fps !!!!!! You can get the recipe off the bullet casting forum . Lube has a BIG effect on accuracy and this stuff is AWESOME !!!! ITS MICRO THIN AND IT WORKS !!!!! Not messy either !!!!
Oh yea , i made the knurling tool from a pic on dougs message boards . I dont have $50 in it !!!!!! Using files to knurl is a PITA !!!! Do what i did !!!!
That about covers it i believe .
Nope !!! You can buy bullets from a few different places but Be Carefull on doing so !!! MANY ARE HARD !!!! You Dont Want anything harder than 40 to 1 and preferably Pure Lead . Pp bullets are pure lead but you Must knurl them up then lube them . Titest fit , dont move off powder , best bc , and best accuracy . Pretty simple yet sophisticated . Thats how i roll......

 

[Sideshow]

That bullet is half bought/half customized by me . It is a paper patch bullet (no lube grooves) that ive knurled up over bore size for a tight fit . Loads pretty easy being knurled and a little tighter all the way down than slip fit . Being swedged pure lead there are no air gaps to cause unbalance in flight . HB stands for hollow base which is a small hemispherical void in its bottom . Its purpose is to help trap pressure by the outer edge being forced out against the barrel bore along with normal obtureation . The half a dry cotton ball should enhance sealing and protect the bullet base from melting like a wool wad does for a flat based bullet . Thinking i may lube it too with BLL so it ( cotton ) wont burn and start a fire possibly......
The BLL lube is a almost watery lube that dries up kinda leaving only a film . Cf rifle guys and pistols are using it for lube and NOT leading their barrels to 2500 fps !!!!!! You can get the recipe off the bullet casting forum . Lube has a BIG effect on accuracy and this stuff is AWESOME !!!! ITS MICRO THIN AND IT WORKS !!!!! Not messy either !!!!
Oh yea , i made the knurling tool from a pic on dougs message boards . I dont have $50 in it !!!!!! Using files to knurl is a PITA !!!! Do what i did !!!!
That about covers it i believe .
Nope !!! You can buy bullets from a few different places but Be Carefull on doing so !!! MANY ARE HARD !!!! You Dont Want anything harder than 40 to 1 and preferably Pure Lead . Pp bullets are pure lead but you Must knurl them up then lube them . Titest fit , dont move off powder , best bc , and best accuracy . Pretty simple yet sophisticated . Thats how i roll......

If you just want to get some bullets to shoot for now id try No Excuses or the place by idaholewis.....ah....damn...brain fart.
.... Oh well them guys , sorry cant remember their name ....Bullshop !!!! Their NASA lube is really good too for a regular lube . I like BLL better .
Whew !!!! Damn near went senile.....crs kicked in lol !!! Get 45 caliber 1/8" wool wads too . The hell with pyro p and its corrosiveness , smoke , and smell , id try T7 3f . Its not as much smoke , dont stink , more energetic , and not quite so corrosive but it will get HARD if left alone after shooting . Use the permatex thread sealant with ptfe #80632 on that bp too . I HATE STUCK PLUGS !!! Youll be glad you did !!! Dont forget to measure the flash hole in the bp . Anything bigger than .035 is got to be fixed or replaced cuz accuracy will be horrible !!! Denatured alcohol dissolves the hard crud ring and deactiveates it like crazy too . Still use a brush . Controversial yes but i like it . I dont like water !!! Thats just me i guess YMMV .

 

[GregK]

If you just want to get some bullets to shoot for now id try No Excuses or the place by idaholewis.....ah....damn...brain fart.
.... Oh well them guys , sorry cant remember their name ....Bullshop !!!! Their NASA lube is really good too for a regular lube . I like BLL better .
Whew !!!! Damn near went senile.....crs kicked in lol !!! Get 45 caliber 1/8" wool wads too . The hell with pyro p and its corrosiveness , smoke , and smell , id try T7 3f . Its not as much smoke , dont stink , more energetic , and not quite so corrosive but it will get HARD if left alone after shooting . Use the permatex thread sealant with ptfe #80632 on that bp too . I HATE STUCK PLUGS !!! Youll be glad you did !!! Dont forget to measure the flash hole in the bp . Anything bigger than .035 is got to be fixed or replaced cuz accuracy will be horrible !!! Denatured alcohol dissolves the hard crud ring and deactiveates it like crazy too . Still use a brush . Controversial yes but i like it . I dont like water !!! Thats just me i guess YMMV .

I shot T73F in my 451
I asked Doc for some load options but I think he missed the T7 part, I’d like some T7 load info too
He recommended BH209 60gr/v with a 400gr bullet, prolly a 5 grain BP igniter
He does have a heavier bullet in stock but no 400’s
I had taken your post to mean you had found a great bullet to use that was readily available
plug is good but I will get a new one from Jeff with a replaceable nipple.

where is the bullet casting forum so I can get the BLL recipe?

you mentioned Pp Bullets, did you mean PR Bullets?

The only Bullets I’ve found so far are No Excuse 460 & Doc’s bullet but I have no way of knowing the hardness

Greg

 

[Sideshow]

I shot T73F in my 451
I asked Doc for some load options but I think he missed the T7 part, I’d like some T7 load info too
He recommended BH209 60gr/v with a 400gr bullet, prolly a 5 grain BP igniter
He does have a heavier bullet in stock but no 400’s
I had taken your post to mean you had found a great bullet to use that was readily available
plug is good but I will get a new one from Jeff with a replaceable nipple.

where is the bullet casting forum so I can get the BLL recipe?

you mentioned Pp Bullets, did you mean PR Bullets?

The only Bullets I’ve found so far are No Excuse 460 & Doc’s bullet but I have no way of knowing the hardness

Greg

Your crossing up 410 and 451 info on bullets . A 410gr .410 bullet is available from No Excuses bullets . They also have 460gr 451 bullets .
Bullet sellers tell you the composition of the lead they are using. If not dont buy them !!! Pp started the begining of a sentence and still means" paper patch " . The forum section " bullet casting" is found when you touch the word "forums" at the top area of modern muzzleloading header . Scroll down till you see "bullet casting" and click on it . Look around . I believe it was under "bh209 lube" . Its currently on page 2 .
The 410's max charge is 100gr of black or subs.
The 451 is 120gr of black or subs
The 504 is 150gr of black or subs
ALL LOADS COME FROM THESE LIMITS
Most guys find 70 to 80gr a good load for T7 in ALL calibers of Whites . Experiment !!!!! No one can say which bullet or load of powder will be best in YOUR rifle without testing .
Doc , the inventor , is right..........BLACKHORN CAN BE USED IN A PLUNGER GUN !!!!! Non -- believers please read this 1000 times !!!!!
It does require a small amount of easily ingniteable powder to be used in a #11 or musket system however for successful ignition of the main load of blackhorn . This is called a duplex load . And Doc does it too !!!
Greg the rest you are going to have to just do it . Time spent shooting them is invaluable . Confidence and know -- how starts with that getting familiar phase . Putting what youve studied , carefully read , researched into action and use . Youll be fine !!! Just do it !!!

 

[flounder]

You'll put ur eye out!

 

[Sideshow]

You'll put ur eye out!

Nonsense flounder !!! Besides a little birdie told me you didnt read that 1000 times !!!!
Besides that the best thing on the movie " Christmas Story" is that beautiful lamp......lol

 

[GregK]

Nonsense flounder !!! Besides a little birdie told me you didnt read that 1000 times !!!!
Besides that the best thing on the movie " Christmas Story" is that beautiful lamp......lol

Thanks for the info. I mis spoke on the NE bullet weight. Sorry about that. I guess I have to call to check the hardness as I didn’t see it listed.
I’m having to relearn all things White again. I’m mostly shooting smokeless but I do enjoy smokers as well.

Greg

 

[Sideshow]

Thanks for the info. I mis spoke on the NE bullet weight. Sorry about that. I guess I have to call to check the hardness as I didn’t see it listed.
I’m having to relearn all things White again. I’m mostly shooting smokeless but I do enjoy smokers as well.

Greg

They claim its pure lead . Bhn should be 5 or 6 . Thats ok on the smoker thing , glad ive helped . The smokeless realm is kinda being prepped for now by me . Going REALLY SLOW too . Different yet alot the same in a twisted sort of a way seems like to me . I will be full of queztionz then too no doubt !!! Good Luck with that 410 !!! Its top shelf !!!