Thoughts on a new sidelock for elk and deer hunting

[grifmXC]

Hello all, First let me apologize for the long first post. I’m new member here and I do not have a lot of experience with muzzleloaders. I hunted whitetail a 4-5 times with an in-line 15-20 years ago. Recently I started thinking about getting a muzzleloader and am leaning towards a hawken. I have done quite a bit of research but given the diversity of responses and that you can trust everything you read on the internet, I am hoping that I’d I summarize what I’ve found and what I am thinking will best fit my needs you guys can tell me where I’m wrong and also answer a few equipment questions.

First, what I’m looking for: A traditional muzzleloader Suitable for deer and elk hunting out to 150 yds. Note: I plan on limiting my range to 100 yds but want margin on energy/performance to help mitigate less than ideal situations (slight misjudgment of range or angle).

General information:

1-32 and faster twist rates are for conical/sabot, but will shoot PRB well I’m reduced powder loads.
1-48 twist rate all around will work well for both PRB and mid range conical bullets for a given cal. Although after watching many of idaholewis’s YouTube videos it works excellent for conical bullets.
1-60 and slower twist rate PRB only.

45 cal: not legal in all states for elk therefore not considered.

50 cal: PRB not legal for elk hunting in all states.
Effective range for elk with PRB <50 yds.
PRB seems to be a marginal option for deer. (Helped family members track deer for significant distances even with good shot placement (150+yds with little blood)
Many conical bullet options (250-500gr) on commercial market/available on shelves.
Conical bullets of a similar weight will have a better BC and therefore retain more energy than a 54cal bullet of similar shape and weight.

54cal: PRB legal for elk in all states.
Effective range for elk with PRB somewhere around 75yds. (Lots of varying opinions).
PRB effective on deer out to 100
Little to no option for commercially available conical bullets.

Where I’m currently leaning: 50 cal Lyman Great Plains Hunter. 1-32 twist should be great for a wide range of conicals and sabot options. Different options in weight can be used to optimize performance for both feet and elk. Can use reduced powder PRB loads for practice (cheap, lighter recoil, and might be able to find load that follows similar trajectory to conical load).

questions:

Thoughts on what I stated above, is anything way off base? If so, what do I have wrong?

For conical bullets, what gr weight should I look at for elk give I want sufficient energy at 150 yds?

For many of the sabot options there are special alignment heads For bullet starters and ram rod so that the bullet isn’t deformed during loading. I would think that the ones designed for PRB would deform the noses of the conicals with the big flat noses, but I’m not sure if it would have a measurable effect on accuracy.

Thanks for taking the time to read, any thoughts you can provide are appreciated.

-Matt

 

[sdporter]

I personally would go with a stock T/C Hawken rifle 1:48 twist.
As you have mentioned, and seen in Lewis’ videos, they shoot a WIDE range of projectiles very well.
If you’re only getting one, get a .50 cal so you can use it everywhere.
The T/C Maxiball, 370 grain, will dump anything you shoot with it, and shoots quite well for being a longer length:weight bullet.
There are countless options that shoot well out of that 1:48 that will perform well on elk and deer both.

 

[sdporter]

Side note, if you’re not beating the bullet down the bore, nose deformation is a non-issue.

 

[michiganmuzzy]

I agree with sdporter. 1:48 twist .50 will be a good all purpose gun out to 150yds, and maybe further. I would suggest you really give it some more consideration. As IdahoLewis says, a gun that does everything ok wont do anything excellent. Will you want to shoot conicals, sabots, or RBs primarily?

 

[michiganmuzzy]

I would rather suggest you get 2 MLs. One for RBs and one for bullets. Shootem alot and decide what you really want or keep both and go further down this rabbit hole Alice.

 

[grifmXC]

Thanks for the replies. I am not opposed to a TC, my only concern is that, since they’re not in production, I’d have to to get a used one. There are a couple of gun shops around me that have used guns but I don’t recall seeing many muzzleloaders ( I wasn’t really looking either) so I’ll like have to buy off the net, and buying a muzzleloader sight unseen seems risky.

As for what I would shoot more, If a 54 cal PRB maintianed enough energy to be effective on elk out to 125-150 yards I would stick with that. being the cheaper option, have less recoil, and available All equate to more shooting which equals better accuracy and familiarity with the weapon. but they don’t, so I would not want to use them hunting for elk, not without reducing range down to 75yds. In a 54 cal I would use a PRB for practice and deer and then would want a conical for elk (450-600gr conical seems a bit overkill for a tx whitetail) In the 50, I wouldn’t use the PRB for anything but target practice and would find a lighter conical or sabot for deer and a heavy 400-480gr conical for elk.

 

[Bushfire]

I'm going down the same path at the moment albeit a little different. Have done a lot of inline hunting but wanted something more traditional.

Looking for a red deer setup, as has been mentioned Lewis makes those TC hawken and renegades look awful good.

I'm personally leaning toward a pedersoli hawken hunter, but a good second hand tc would get me over the line

 

[grifmXC]

I was considering one of pedersoli hunter until I read that to remove the barrel you have to remove one of the screws that hold the peep sight and rotate it.
Maybe it doesn’t affect accuracy but seems like it would and I would be counter productive to have to check sights after each cleaning.

 

[Willfish4fud]

I’d go with a .50 LRH barrel in a renegade or a pedersoli Missouri River hawken in .50. I personally wouldn’t try to make a gun cross over from roundball to conicals. Lew is running some heavy lead with 90 gr behind them. If recoil Is an issue you won’t like that

 

[deermanok]

I like the Pedersoli Scout Carbine.

 

[michiganmuzzy]

the Pederoli Hawken Hunter in .54 is a 1:24 twist. You could sling some serious lead a long way with that one.

 

[eekjellander]

I favor 54 cal as I have sidelocks in all flavors and shoot them all up to .610 . Get a TC Hawken /Renegade and do not hesitate to buy used ! I am known for buying used barrels and sending them to Bob Hoyt who either relines to smaller or bores out to larger calibers with my custom twist be it round ball /conicals or what ever you come up with and quite reasonable with quik turn around time . The side lock is a versatile platform and can hold a variety of barrels ,the Renegade is a 1 inch (across the flats) barrel and the Hawken can be had in the smaller (15/16) barrel stock in the 45 cal and smaller yet for lesser cal (45 is the smallest) I own . Bob has made me smooth bores /round ball and conical s in appropriate twists and they all work great ! Ed

 

[Bushfire]

I was considering one of pedersoli hunter until I read that to remove the barrel you have to remove one of the screws that hold the peep sight and rotate it.
Maybe it doesn’t affect accuracy but seems like it would and I would be counter productive to have to check sights after each cleaning.

@Idaholewis would be able to confirm whether there is any issue with loss of zero. I can't imagine there is but he would know.

 

[Hatchet Jack]

If it were me......... I would try to find a stock .54 cal TC Hawken or Renegade. Also get a .50 GM LRH barrel from Track of the Wolf. You will have the best of both worlds.

 

[michiganmuzzy]

If it were me......... I would try to find a stock .54 cal TC Hawken or Renegade. Also get a .50 GM LRH barrel from Track of the Wolf. You will have the best of both worlds.

X2. love my Renegade and will pickup a .54 barrel some day.

 

[wmdbowman]

My thoughts for only one gun would be a slow twist 54 or 58 Cal. Round ball gun. Shoot only patched round balls. This talk about shooting beyond 100 yards if using open sights is not good.
I think I read a Traditional gun, Traditional to me has open sights. A .54 RB with 120 to 140 Gr. of Black powder will kill an elk/deer At 100 yds or less with a good lung shot. A .58 is good If you can find one. You want the barrel long enough to burn a heavy charge or drop down to FFFG I use FFG
In my .54 and .60 cal. guns. Using a scoped gun I would still hold my shooting @ 100 yds. or less

 

[grifmXC]

All, thanks for the replies, I’m not in a rush to buy something so I will keep my eyes open, maybe check out a couple gun shows once my area isn’t such a hotspot. I hadn’t even looked at the Missouri River Hawken, I didn’t realize it was a fast twist.

As far as shooting distance I don’t plan on shooting past 100 yds. But I don’t want a setup that has just enough energy to kill given a perfectly placed shot At 100 yds because nothing is perfect in the field. That way if the animal is not perfectly broadside, at 110 yds instead of 100, or the bullet hits a rib/edge of the shoulder blade, there is margin on the energy to make a clean kill.

thanks again for the thoughts

-Matt

 

[JonE]

I have a Lyman Great Plains Rifle in .54 cal 1:60 twist, it shoots the Hornady Great Plains 425 gr bullet just great. I realize they don't make the Hornady Great Plains Bullet any longer, but there are those experimenting with the Lee REAL bullets both 300 gr and 380 gr with stellar results because of it's short style. Here are two side by side photos of a recent practice session I did. Most will practice out to 100 yards, heck I'd be luck to get a shot off over 50 yards, so that's where I keep it for now. I have grouped my PBR's at 102 yards on the 10" gong target.

 

[Hatchet Jack]

All, thanks for the replies, I’m not in a rush to buy something so I will keep my eyes open, maybe check out a couple gun shows once my area isn’t such a hotspot. I hadn’t even looked at the Missouri River Hawken, I didn’t realize it was a fast twist.

As far as shooting distance I don’t plan on shooting past 100 yds. But I don’t want a setup that has just enough energy to kill given a perfectly placed shot At 100 yds because nothing is perfect in the field. That way if the animal is not perfectly broadside, at 110 yds instead of 100, or the bullet hits a rib/edge of the shoulder blade, there is margin on the energy to make a clean kill.

thanks again for the thoughts

-Matt

If you look at the Pendersoli's checkout the Traditional Hunter Hawken as well. It is a 1-24'' twist just like the Missouri River Hawken at half the price of the Missouri River. It is more of a no frills hunting gun.
New, the Missouri River goes about $1400 and the Traditional Hunter goes about $700.

 

[grifmXC]

If you look at the Pendersoli's checkout the Traditional Hunter Hawken as well. It is a 1-24'' twist just like the Missouri River Hawken at half the price of the Missouri River.

that was mentioned earlier by Brushfire, the Pedersoli hunter wasone of the first guns I was looking at, because Ultimately I want the gun to have a peep sight, until I found out that you have to partially remove the sight to remove the barrel for cleaning. I would think that would affect accuracY. I would love to hear otherwise if someone has personal experience.