Use of Different Wads and Smokeless Powders

[frankmillie]

Here’s a pic of my new Woodman Patriot 45cal muzzleloader with 26” Brux 1-20 barrel with high pressure 209 breech plug.

I plan to try both sabot and bullet-to-bore using multiple bullets using smokeless powders under 45kpsi pressure. Intent is best accuracy on paper, to see how far I get that good accuracy, and also to work up reasonable hunting loads for big hogs and deer.

My question for now is about wads. My understanding is that wool wads are useful to keep sabots from being damaged.
But I don’t know purpose of veggie or poly wads.
Can someone please educate me on best use of wool, veggie and poly wads?
Thanks!
Frank

 

[GM54-120]

You wont be shooting loads anywhere near 45kpsi with sabots. Unless you use fast powers like N110 you really dont need a wad under the sabot at all. 4198, Re7, N120 ect are all fairly easy on sabots and only N120 will even break 32kpsi with a 200gr bullet. Even 4198 and a 240gr Fury wont be that rough on them.

 

[frankmillie]

I think my hottest planned loads on my 45cal are as follows:

11/59grains of N110/H322 on 275gr Fury smooth sized. I’ll try that load on sabot 250gr Fury too.

58grains of IMR4198 on 275gr Fury smooth sized & sabot 250gr Fury.

62grains of Reloader7 on 275gr Fury smooth sized & sabot 250gr Fury.

I also plan similar loads on similar and on smaller bullets of different brands.

Do you think these loads are too hot, and would they benefit from using wads?

 

[Hatchet Jack]

I have a Brux 1-24 on my Encore. It is a great barrel. However, I could not get saboted bullets to shoot worth a crap. So I gave up.
I can get just about every smooth formed bullet I stuff down the barrel to shoot with good accuracy. Using a wool wad over top of about 60 grains of H4198.
I size my bullets a little loose, then knurl them up between two files. I am amazed at how well that barrel shoots.

 

[Mnt monkey]

With 4198 and that light weight of a rifle if I were you I would start at 55 grains not so much a pressure issue more of a handling and recoil issue,, I would try 55grains of 4198 and a 240 fury OT or 250 fury 40 cal with tip,, also he has a new 225 grain bullet 40 cal with a black tip that has shot much better in my rifles than his 225 grain star tip I really would recommend that bullet too,, in all of my barrel nut 45 Cal smokeless guns 57 grains of 4198 whether h or IMR have all in a sense been an accuracy load for me,, when I've gone above 57 grains I have had some sabot issues.

 

[frankmillie]

Thank you for the reply, Jack. I’d also like to try loads with H4198 and N120 but I haven’t been able to get those powders yet. I still have notifications out for them on shootingbot.

Have you tried your load without wads or with different types of wads?

 

[frankmillie]

Mtn Monkey, your point about recoil is well taken. I have already gotten shooting jacket with pad and supplemental pad for the gun - but I still expect to move my powder loads down after I try my hot stuff.
That said, I will certainly adjust my IMR4198 start to 57gr as you suggest. Thank you!!
And I will look at Fury sabot bullets with black tips - I currently have a bunch of his MZ 40cal without tips for sabots in 225gr and 250gr. But I do already have his full-size 45cal black tips for bore sizing in 250gr and 275gr.

 

[Hatchet Jack]

Thank you for the reply, Jack. I’d also like to try loads with H4198 and N120 but I haven’t been able to get those powders yet. I still have notifications out for them on shootingbot.

Have you tried your load without wads or with different types of wads?

Yes, I tried my loads without wads and they shoot OK. With wool wads most them tighten up from 1.5'' @ 100 yds to cloverleafs.
I have not seen H4198 in quite some time. I do come across IMR4198 from time to time. I do not think there is a big difference between the two. I believe H might give you a little more speed, but not enough to worry about.
I have only tried my loads with wool wads. They helped my grouping so much that I did not find it necessary to try other types of wads.

 

[Mnt monkey]

Dennis is making that 225 with a tip 40 cal shoot it in a light blue sabot I would start at 55 and work up to 57 if you put some type of sub base or wad under the sabot you can probably go on up to 59 or 60,,, I have found in almost all my guns 57 grains is a sweet spot with 240s and 250s and 4198

 

[frankmillie]

Mtn Monkey, I’ll definitely start my IMR4198 at 55gr and work up to 57gr. I expect the hefty loads will be just for benchrest use with Harris bipod in any case. Will definitely be careful with that.
And I will certainly contact Dennis about those 40cal black tip 225’s. I coincidentally just ordered some Fury stuff so I’ll add to existing order.
Thank you!

 

[frankmillie]

So.. I understand using wads to help protect sabots at higher velocity. And I am very glad to hear how Jack says the wool wads helped him..
But how and why would I decide between the wool, veggie or poly wads?

 

[Hatchet Jack]

So.. I understand using wads to help protect sabots at higher velocity. And I am very glad to hear how Jack says the wool wads helped him..
But how and why would I decide between the wool, veggie or poly wads?

No rhyme or reason. You never know how your gun is going to shoot. Have all 3 wads at the bench and test them out.

 

[frankmillie]

I was afraid someone might say “no rhyme or reason”. So I have all types of wads and I guess I’ll try them all.

 

[frankmillie]

I have a lot of different bullets to try:

Pittman Aeromax 0.452” 303grain aluminum tip
Speer Jacketed Handgun Bullet 0.451” 300grain soft point
Pittman Accumax 0.452” 278grain aluminum tip
Parker Black Max 0.451” 275grain black tip
Fury Star Tip 2p 0.452” 275grain black tip
Northern Precision Pinpoints 0.452” 270grain
Fury Star Tip 2p 0.452” 250grain black tip
Fury Star Tip MZ 0.402” 250grain open tip
Hornady FTX 0.452” 250grain flex tip
Hornady Interlock 0.452” 245grain soft point
Bear Creek 450 Bushmaster 0.452” 240grain soft point
Fury Star Tip 2p 0.402” 225grain black tip
Hammer Pittman-Hammer 0.408” 253grain
Hammer Shockhammer pure copper 0.452” 221grain open tip
Hornady SST 0.400” 200grain red tip
Woodman Arms pure copper 0.402” 175grain open tip
Hornady XTP 0.400” 180grain


P.S. - I had to inventory everything I bought for this new gun over last 6 months

 

[Mnt monkey]

Sounds like you're going to have a great time I look forward to your results you might check out that 400 grain smokeless group I just shot it's on a northern precision thread from a while back not that I would shoot that 400 grain bullet in that rifle.

 

[ENCORE50A]

............ But how and why would I decide between the wool, veggie or poly wads?

Here's what I've found, not that its right or wrong. I don't and won't shoot sabots.

That said, some bullets I've found will shoot .... slightly .... tighter groups with a wool wad, where another bullet of the same weight will shoot better with a veggie.
Bullets that need a THUMP to BUMP, benefit more, IMO, from veggie wads, where I find with the identical charge there's a slight increase in MV over wool. Bullet jacket thickness makes a difference.
I've shot a lot of XLD 300's very accurately with wool wads, but only to 600yds. However, shooting the XLD 350's and to 1,000yds, the veggie wad for an increased BUMP and the slight increase in velocity performed flawlessly.
Sometimes you just have to experiment

 

[frankmillie]

Sounds like you're going to have a great time I look forward to your results you might check out that 400 grain smokeless group I just shot it's on a northern precision thread from a while back not that I would shoot that 400 grain bullet in that rifle.

Yes indeed I bought that gun for a lot of fun. I love that group you did!! But I wouldn’t even think about something that big for mine (LOL!) - I think mine will be quite brutal enough for me with what I already have.

 

[Mnt monkey]

This gun will stack a 350 pitman I've never shot a 400 grain smokeless before I'm not sure many people have,,, the loads recoil signature didn't seem really severe I was surprised I'm going to shoot it some more

 

[frankmillie]

Thank you for your reply, Encore50A. Sounds like you have quite a rig too. I’m quite sure I’ll get around to trying those Arrowhead XLD’s - but probably something smaller than your 300’s.

 

[HV-Muzzleloaders]