Using black powder substitutes in an old shotgun

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toggy

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My farmer buddy has a 1900 LC Smith shotgun. I gave it to him in exchange for hunting rights. It was just sitting in my cabinet and my buddy loves old guns. After I loaned it to him he fell in love with the gun so we worked it out.

Because it's a 1900 we have to be careful with smokeless powder. I read online that it may have been engineered with black powder in mind.

We were buying shells from RST which were low pressure and designed for use in older shotguns. They've been out of stock for a while and I think reloading would be useful anyway.

He's held on to a bunch of the cardboard hulls I am thinking that we would be safe to use triple seven or black horn 209 and reload the hulls with those powders. I'm also going to find a gunsmith to talk to about this, but I get the sense that this is a safe way to reload for an old shotgun. Does anyone have experience with doing something like this?

I'm not going to start reloading and shooting shells out of this old gun based solely on advice that I get off the internet, but I welcome input...

Tom
 
I have zero expertise on this but I wonder if Hodgdon would have anything to recommend.

As a shotgun lover this project sounds really cool.
 
Those guns are unsafe for smokeless.The one i have isnt 2 3/4 inch its 2 1/2. yeas i used triple 7 and 50 grains by volume and 75 grains by volume no 6 shot with a paper hull and roll crimped cardbord over the end.
 
Iam going to turn it into a regular muzzleloading shotgun..Just reload cut off brass shotgun shells with a shotgun primer..add a thimble underneath for i van carry a rod or get a extendable one.
 
Some old 12 gauge (and 16 gauge as well) shotguns were chambered for shorter shotshells than we see today. Smokeless powder was in its infancy and shell design (which, given cursory visual inspection, appears similar) evolved into a quite different end product. Throw in damascus barrels and metallurgy - bad things can happen.

I've dissected some early shotshells to duplicate loads from earlier times in my M/L shotguns and, using old-time components (Alcan wads, etc.) had good luck without blowing anything up (so far). As long as I substitute black powder (by volume) for whatever was in the old shells, they're safe (even if a bit underpowered) for what I've used them for - small game & informal clay birds.

Loaded them in paper and plastic star crimp (not rolled). Brass shells were interesting, but too much trouble for me. In my M/L shotguns, it's all good. Anyway ... have fun.
 
I posted this in another area by accident. It belongs here.

You will not fare well with BH209. First, it requires substantial pressure to be kept on it to ignite well and secondly, and more importantly, if it does ignite it generates far more pressure than any black or sub other than T7. That old gun may not be proofed for those kinds of pressures. It would be a sin to find yourself holding a smoking pile of twisted metal and broken wood but imagine losing a hand or part of an arm or your eyes or even worse. BH wasn't even a dream when that gun was made.

Even if the gun shows as being "proof tested" the process in doing so involved powders that were in no way as powerful as today's smokeless or semi-smokeless powders. If this were mu gun and I wanted to shoot it using a current powder, I wouldn't wander much further than Pyrodex.
 
What makes you think it's unsafe with smokeless powder?
http://lcsmith.server309.com/shotguns/manufacture.html

It was just based on a bunch of research and reading.

I tested the chamber on this gun and in fact it needs two and a half inch shells. We probably have about 30 left over from what we bought from RST.

I should ask RST what they use for powder because they are specifically designing these shells to be low pressure for older guns.

I'll do a lot of research before we ever pull the trigger on a load.

Edit: The gun I'm talking about is not Damascus it's plain steel
 
Why not load shells with real black? It is available, it is the real deal for that gun, etc. Go classy and do it right, get some all brass shells in the proper length, etc.
 
I am a avid black powder shotgunner. I have 4 LC Smith 2 steal 2 Damascus Late 1800es early 1900 guns. 12 ga.good soild guns.I shoot factory 1 1/8 loads 2 3/4 in. all the time in them. I also load BP shells. you can not use plastic wads they will melt in barrel. With most BP shotguns loads shells or muzzleloader we shoot what they call a square 1 oz shot use same dipper of powder by volume ect. I just add as many over shot wads to make a nice crimp. The old myth of modern powder in Damascus was gun makers back in the day wanting you to buy a new gun? LC Smith still made Damascus guns 30 years after steal came around.
 
Hodgden Lists triple 7 as a BP sub. in Rifles and Shotguns but gives no data that I can find for shotguns ! I set out testing T7 2ff and 3fff loose in both 12ga. federal paper hulls w/standard 209 primers , and a Muzzle loading 10 ga. using musket caps for ignition ! Shot gun wads were taped to keep shot inside to make Chrono results more accurate ! Here is what I found . 12ga /209/fed paper hull/ Claybuster CB1138-12 wad 1 1/8 oz #7 1/2 shot --60gr T7 3fff loose by BP volume measure 1310 fps average for 3 shots / 60gr T7+10gr. 3fff black powder 1353 fps average for 3 shots . these were tested in a modern 12 ga. 28" barrel . Extreme spread for 3 shots was 38 fps Ohler 35P @ 10' . Now the 10ga. muzzle loader Modern steel proofed for BP with 27" barrel cylinder Bore / CCI musket caps / SP-10 wad shot cup cushion base and flex cushion cut off substituted w/heavy over powder wad 3/32" lubed w/ TC Mazi lube / 80gr. T7 3fff Loose by volume / 1 1/4 oz #7 1/2 shot / 1 overshot card 1/16" gave 1024 fps average for 3 shots 132 fps extreme spread 988fps low/ 1120fps High (very inconsistent) . 10ga. same load except 20 gr. 3fffg Black powder was poured in first under the 80 gr. T7 gave 1297fps Average 42 fps extreme spread . fair load Heavy Recoil --- fouling required cleaning with solution after every shot ! My opinion is that large bore shotguns 10 ga. and larger are going to need heavy shot loads to make reasonable shot start resistance to get the T7 burning correctly . 10ga. needs 1 3/8 to 1 5/8 oz shot which I will test later with and without the Black powder booster . I believe the 12ga. and especially the 20ga. muzzle loaders will have higher chamber pressures due to Less dynamic volumetric changes during firing same as smokeless loads produce thus
12ga. and 20ga. with standard shot payloads probably wont need BP as a booster , To Be confirmed later !
 
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