Weighing round balls, rounding, and discarding

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James Sparhawk

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Are we supposed to round to the nearest whole number? Then, how many grains from the average is unacceptable? For instance, I just weighed out 26 balls. 8 rounded to 187; 17 rounded to 186; and 1 rounded to 185. I'm thinking about just discarding the one that weighed 185. Am I on the right path to getting rid of flyers?
 
This is something I'm going to start doing too, just to see how much difference it makes, I've never bothered to do so.
I'd say play around with it. Sort them to within 1 full grain of each other and see what groups look like. Then maybe try a 1/2 grain spread and see how much it made a difference.

Being as consistent as possible lubing patches helped me a lot with flyers. I will say up front that I got the most flyers from store bought prelubed patches. The Dutch Schultz method is the most consistent way I know of to lube patches but if you're careful other lube methods can be good too. I can vary my group sizes by 2"-3" just by the amount of lube I use. At least with my factory 1:48 TC with shallow grooves anyway. Too slick seems to make it "skip" through the rifling, groups are definitely bigger if I use quite a bit of lube. Using mink oil from TOTW, if I put on enough lube to "fill the weave" of the patch like is often recommended groups are a couple inches bigger than if I just barely lube the patch. By barely I mean I do one single swipe across the lube with a patch, using the same pressure every patch, and then attempt to rub what little there is out to the edges. You can barely tell they have lube on them but shot patches look good and groups definitely tightened up a bit for me. Using the Dutch Schultz method I like a 6:1 ratio. If you're unfamiliar with this, you mix a ratio of Ballistol and water together (or Castor oil and denatured alcohol can be used). The bigger ratio is the Ballistol or Castor oil. Shake the heck out of it to mix them together well, let the foam settle a bit (Castor oil / Denatured alcohol don't foam nearly as much as Ballistol/Water) and then dip a patch into the mixture one at a time and then set them on a screen or wax paper. You let them sit out until all of the water or denatured alcohol evaporates away leaving only the Ballistol or castor oil on the patches. Good way to get the same amount of lube on every patch. Known as a "dry patch" system. Generally folks find that a ratio somewhere between 5:1 and 8:1 is best. Two things to be aware of: You'll need to swab between shots with this method or fouling will get terrible, and don't make up a bunch of patches way ahead of time because it will deteriorate the patch material and groups will really open up if the patch isn't holding up. I don't like to make up patches more than a couple weeks in advance of using them.

I find swabbing every shot also far and away yields better groups for me. I get some crazy flyers if I don't swab. I swab the same every time, one pass down and back with a barely damp patch (pausing at the bottom for about 6-7 seconds to let the fouling soften a bit) and then a pass down and back with a dry patch. Swabbing every shot can result in pushing fouling down and blocking the flame channel, so either popping a cap after swabbing to ensure it is clear or turning your jag down a bit so the patch and jag go down smoothly and then the patch bunches up and pulls the fouling OUT of the barrel is best. I chucked my jag into a cordless drill and spun it on a flat file to turn it down, going a little at a time and then checking fit with a cleaning patch on a fouled bore. I tapered it a bit, thinner in the front tapering to a bit bigger in the back.

Weighing out charges also gives better consistency than using a powder measure. You can use a measure, being as consistent as possible with filling it, and find what charge shoots best. Then fill the measure with that charge, dump the powder out onto a scale and weigh it so you know what weight you're looking for to measure out all your charges exactly the same. IME a grain or so of powder difference doesn't really seem to make a lot of difference in my groups with black powder though, but being consistent is the name of the game when looking for tiny groups on paper.
 
Have you tried the s
This is something I'm going to start doing too, just to see how much difference it makes, I've never bothered to do so.
I'd say play around with it. Sort them to within 1 full grain of each other and see what groups look like. Then maybe try a 1/2 grain spread and see how much it made a difference.

Being as consistent as possible lubing patches helped me a lot with flyers. I will say up front that I got the most flyers from store bought prelubed patches. The Dutch Schultz method is the most consistent way I know of to lube patches but if you're careful other lube methods can be good too. I can vary my group sizes by 2"-3" just by the amount of lube I use. At least with my factory 1:48 TC with shallow grooves anyway. Too slick seems to make it "skip" through the rifling, groups are definitely bigger if I use quite a bit of lube. Using mink oil from TOTW, if I put on enough lube to "fill the weave" of the patch like is often recommended groups are a couple inches bigger than if I just barely lube the patch. By barely I mean I do one single swipe across the lube with a patch, using the same pressure every patch, and then attempt to rub what little there is out to the edges. You can barely tell they have lube on them but shot patches look good and groups definitely tightened up a bit for me. Using the Dutch Schultz method I like a 6:1 ratio. If you're unfamiliar with this, you mix a ratio of Ballistol and water together (or Castor oil and denatured alcohol can be used). The bigger ratio is the Ballistol or Castor oil. Shake the heck out of it to mix them together well, let the foam settle a bit (Castor oil / Denatured alcohol don't foam nearly as much as Ballistol/Water) and then dip a patch into the mixture one at a time and then set them on a screen or wax paper. You let them sit out until all of the water or denatured alcohol evaporates away leaving only the Ballistol or castor oil on the patches. Good way to get the same amount of lube on every patch. Known as a "dry patch" system. Generally folks find that a ratio somewhere between 5:1 and 8:1 is best. Two things to be aware of: You'll need to swab between shots with this method or fouling will get terrible, and don't make up a bunch of patches way ahead of time because it will deteriorate the patch material and groups will really open up if the patch isn't holding up. I don't like to make up patches more than a couple weeks in advance of using them.

I find swabbing every shot also far and away yields better groups for me. I get some crazy flyers if I don't swab. I swab the same every time, one pass down and back with a barely damp patch (pausing at the bottom for about 6-7 seconds to let the fouling soften a bit) and then a pass down and back with a dry patch. Swabbing every shot can result in pushing fouling down and blocking the flame channel, so either popping a cap after swabbing to ensure it is clear or turning your jag down a bit so the patch and jag go down smoothly and then the patch bunches up and pulls the fouling OUT of the barrel is best. I chucked my jag into a cordless drill and spun it on a flat file to turn it down, going a little at a time and then checking fit with a cleaning patch on a fouled bore. I tapered it a bit, thinner in the front tapering to a bit bigger in the back.

Weighing out charges also gives better consistency than using a powder measure. You can use a measure, being as consistent as possible with filling it, and find what charge shoots best. Then fill the measure with that charge, dump the powder out onto a scale and weigh it so you know what weight you're looking for to measure out all your charges exactly the same. IME a grain or so of powder difference doesn't really seem to make a lot of difference in my groups with black powder though, but being consistent is the name of the game when looking for tiny groups on paper.
Have you tried the wet patch with dish soap and water method yet? I can shoot literally all day without the need to wipe between shots. Just a drop of soap to 2 to 4 ounces of water. Submerge the patch, sling off the excess, and load. I shot a 1 3/8 group one day and a 1 inch the next @ 50 yards with this method. I even loaded 6 in my loading block and it worked. I learned it from the older guys at my long rifle club.
 
Jim, doesn't the damp patch effect your powder or do you use a wad?
 
Are we supposed to round to the nearest whole number? Then, how many grains from the average is unacceptable? For instance, I just weighed out 26 balls. 8 rounded to 187; 17 rounded to 186; and 1 rounded to 185. I'm thinking about just discarding the one that weighed 185. Am I on the right path to getting rid of flyers?

A little deviation in weight won’t cause flyers. I did a lot of research on round ball accuracy. Even barreled a tc contender carbine with a green mtn 40 caliber barrel & scoped it. A couple grains won’t make a difference. I tested different powders, patch combos, lubes etc.
brings to mind a time on the pistol line after the national match at friendship. A guy claimed hi flyers were due to voids etc in his ball, and a master shooter told him it didn’t matter. When questioned, the guy looked around and picked up a rock of what he said looked about his caliber, parched it and shot a 10 @ 25 yds (pistol). People were amazed and said he couldn’t do it again in a million tries. Of course he did it again on the next try. .

Oscar Wilde said: “ consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative”. Could be, but shooting, and esp patched round balls, consistency is everything. I use castor oil & alcohol lube, and never swab between shots, even on a long day of match shooting. Experiment with patch type, ball size, lube type & amt etc. . I use land size ball with .020 pillow ticking.
 
If I were doing this, and I’m not, I’d keep the heaviest ones and any that were within 1 grain. Anything that was lighter by more than a grain, I’d discard. That said, I don’t do it and I’m not going to.
 
Have you tried the s
Have you tried the wet patch with dish soap and water method yet? I can shoot literally all day without the need to wipe between shots. Just a drop of soap to 2 to 4 ounces of water. Submerge the patch, sling off the excess, and load. I shot a 1 3/8 group one day and a 1 inch the next @ 50 yards with this method. I even loaded 6 in my loading block and it worked. I learned it from the older guys at my long rifle club.
I haven't tried water with dish soap, except for cleaning, but have tried 3 different liquid lubes. While fouling is kept soft so loading is fine without swabbing between shots, accuracy quickly becomes an issue. I've tried it with Hoppes BP solvent, Birchwood-Casey #77 BP cleaner, and plain olive oil. First shot hits POA, second shot hits about 2" left of that, third shot takes off left more than 10", and shots after that were missing my whole target, probably had around a 14" diameter around POA. Swabbed the bore with one damp patch and one dry patch and the next shot was POA again.
Not sure why this happens, as my PRB combo is pretty tight. Palm is sore after a good shooting session smacking the short starter hard enough that it will start into the bore, it really wouldn't be convenient to have to go any tighter and require a mallet.
 
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A little deviation in weight won’t cause flyers. I did a lot of research on round ball accuracy. Even barreled a tc contender carbine with a green mtn 40 caliber barrel & scoped it. A couple grains won’t make a difference. I tested different powders, patch combos, lubes etc.
brings to mind a time on the pistol line after the national match at friendship. A guy claimed hi flyers were due to voids etc in his ball, and a master shooter told him it didn’t matter. When questioned, the guy looked around and picked up a rock of what he said looked about his caliber, parched it and shot a 10 @ 25 yds (pistol). People were amazed and said he couldn’t do it again in a million tries. Of course he did it again on the next try. .

Oscar Wilde said: “ consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative”. Could be, but shooting, and esp patched round balls, consistency is everything. I use castor oil & alcohol lube, and never swab between shots, even on a long day of match shooting. Experiment with patch type, ball size, lube type & amt etc. . I use land size ball with .020 pillow ticking.

Brayhaven, good info. When I start weighing out RB's I think I'll go with a full 2 grain window to sort them. Then I'll keep some that are 3 grains or more out and then shoot them last into a group of the "good" ones to see where they land, sounds like a fun test.

You must be blessed with a rifle that doesn't require a real tight PRB combo to shoot well? I run a 6:1 ratio of CO/DA and it is a bear to reload if you don't swab every other shot, so I just swab every shot anymore. Does your rifle have deep or shallow grooves? My TC Renegade is plumb touchy, in regard more to accuracy, but loading can get awful tough too. TIA!
 
Brayhaven, good info. When I start weighing out RB's I think I'll go with a full 2 grain window to sort them. Then I'll keep some that are 3 grains or more out and then shoot them last into a group of the "good" ones to see where they land, sounds like a fun test.

You must be blessed with a rifle that doesn't require a real tight PRB combo to shoot well? I run a 6:1 ratio of CO/DA and it is a bear to reload if you don't swab every other shot, so I just swab every shot anymore. Does your rifle have deep or shallow grooves? My TC Renegade is plumb touchy, in regard more to accuracy, but loading can get awful tough too. TIA!

Hmm, no I use a very tight load that I hammer in with a short starter (brass) before ramming home.
Shooting matches twice a month. The big ones starting in morning and shooting all day. The last shot goes down as easy as the second one. And dead on.

I don’t like to put any water down my barrel while shooting. My lube is 15% castor oil and 85% (99%) isopropyl alcohol. I use .020-.022 pillow ticking.

I used to swab, but In Long matches was getting hangfires and even misfires. I pulled the breechplug after one and saw a buildup of concrete hard fouling way up to the flash channel. I was shoving fouling down with the swabbing and the continuous heat & pressure was building it up.
Not swabbing, lets the next load “clean” the fouling from the previous shot, and takes it out with the shot, leaving only the fouling from that shot.
Cleaning after a long day shows very little extra crud.
I use Swiss powder. But have showed others how I do it who use other brands with the same result. Have used it in my 32 cal pistols up to my 50 flinters. Mostly 36 which the wife also shoots. The small bores are normally more sensitive to fouling. But never a-problem.
 
So you are using the castor oil / alcohol mix as a wet lube I bet. Dip the patches, wring them out, and load?
I'm referring to lubing them ahead of time and after dipping them you let them sit out for a couple hours so all of the alcohol evaporates away. Leaves a dry, slightly slick feeling patch.
 
During all the time I shot off-hand matches, I didn't weigh out the balls I was using. They were .535 using a .20 canvas patch and lubing with window washing fluid, Murphy's Oil and alcohol.
If I was shooting a paper match then I switched to weighed balls that were I/2grn. plus or minus. I thought it made a difference but sometimes just thinking it did helped, if you know what I mean!
Big John
 
If I was shooting a paper match then I switched to weighed balls that were I/2grn. plus or minus. I thought it made a difference but sometimes just thinking it did helped, if you know what I mean!
Big John

This is the way i see it, Accuracy is my No. 1 Goal in Muzzleloading, I make every shot as identical as I possibly can to the Shot before it. Does it make a Difference? I honestly don’t know? I have NEVER Tried Group Shooting Conicals/Balls that Weighed Differently, For one It would drive me NUTS thinking about it, Just Knowing there was a Difference would play Head Games with me. Being an Accuracy Freak with My Muzzleloaders, Conicals/Balls, and Powder Charges that are not identical just doesn’t make good sense to me?

I have Reloaded Precision Centerfire for over 30 Years now, I have shot them to 1,000 Yards. My Centerfire Rifle Bullets, and powder Charges are all IDENTICAL, What makes my Muzzleloaders any different? Are my Muzzleloaders suppose to Magically Compensate for Differences? LOL, NOT!! I expect a LOT from Both my Centerfire Rifles, and my Muzzleloaders, When i do my Part, They BOTH Deliver :lewis:

My Results Clearly show that what i am Doing is Working, i will continue Weighing my Conicals, and Round Balls, Along with my Powder Charges. I will gladly spend the Extra few minutes Knowing my Stuff is identical. If i have a Bad outing, At least I can’t Blame those few things

This saying is precisely how i feel
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