What do you all think about the "Gain" or progressive rifling twist in a barrel"

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If gain twist were universally recognized as clearly superior it would be universally used.
Yes... and No. Betamax was superior to VHS, but everyone bought a VHS player. So, what is universally superior doesn't mean it has the marketplace.

The Gain twist isn't superior, it has it's place in getting bullets through faster twists more efficiently.
 
The faster twist rate increases the pressures
Yeah, I know that now. I figured it out last night. A Gain Twist is no more than a way to get a projectile into a faster twist more efficiently. That's it.

If you take a .50 rifle with a pure 1:70 twist and another .50 rifle with a Gain twist to 1:48, the 1:70 will be faster (more velocity).
What I thought people were telling me was the opposite. The gain twist would be faster, but it isn't true.

I am not a fan of the 1:48 twist or faster for PRBs, but the gain twist answers and removes my objections to it.

Becasue of the maleability of lead, I can see where a gain twist could be used to propel a long bullet into a fast twist. e.g. start with a 1:48 and accelerate the twist to 1:20. It could prevent the lead from stripping through the rifling. I have had that happen too many times. One way to tell is the caked lead embedded into the rifling.
 
Yes... and No. Betamax was superior to VHS, but everyone bought a VHS player. So, what is universally superior doesn't mean it has the marketplace.

The Gain twist isn't superior, it has it's place in getting bullets through faster twists more efficiently.
But again, if it’s clearly recognized to be superior by the majority it will be eventually adopted by the majority. But it isn’t. Nothing against gain rifling but most simply don’t benefit enough to go to it.
 
But again, if it’s clearly recognized to be superior by the majority it will be eventually adopted by the majority. But it isn’t. Nothing against gain rifling but most simply don’t benefit enough to go to it.
I agree. It isn't superior overall. However it may be superior at dealing with fast twists. I don't think people understand it, therefore they stay away from it. I believe most shooters think the gain twist is like some form of Voodoo. Until that myth is broken, it may stay in the shadows.
 
Agree! And like anything nebulous it's fun to discuss it and enjoy the time spent. And ya know the concept seems perfectly logical to me. I just wonder why all rifles aren't rifled with gain twist if it makes a noticeable improvement. Anyway, thanks for the conversation.
 
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It doesn't CAUSE acceleration. It ALLOWS the bullet to achieve a higher velocity. the slower initial twist lets the bullet accelerate faster and then starts to twist it more quickly near the muzzle. Speed first, then add more spin for better accuracy.
Bullet energy, (and thus velocity squared), is proportional to the area of the bullet base times the area under the curve of pressure versus distance down the rifle barrel. The rate at which powder burns is an increasing function of temperature and an increasing function of pressure: Higher pressure = faster burn, Higher temp = faster burn. The velocity limiting factor with all modern powders is that the pressure peaks when the bullet is a short way down the barrel, and then it falls off rather quickly as the bullet moves farther down the barrel. To increase velocity, then, you have to figure out how to lengthen the peak of the pressure versus distance curve WITHOUT increasing the height of the curve (and thus blowing up your rifle), and/or figure out how to make the pressure v. distance curve fall off more slowly.

The "magnum" approach to higher velocities is to increase case capacity and stuff in more of a powder which burns more slowly. HIgher case capacity and slower burning powder keep pressure from building too quickly, and also provides a bigger reservoir of high pressure gas which is replenished with burning powder over a slightly longer period of time. It works, but there are serious downsides: 1) All that hot gas rushing out of the chamber erodes the barrel throat more quickly; 2) The extra powder increases recoil and muzzle blast tremendously (To calculate recoil, the empirical rule is that the momentum of the recoiling rifle will equal the bullet mass x bullet velocity + the mass of the powder x bullet velocity x 1.5. So... increasing powder by 10 grains increases recoil momentum the same amount as increasing bullet weight by 15 grains.); 3) To realize much increase in velocity, you need a magnum length action and a long barrel, which makes for a longer, heavier rifle with a whippy barrel.; 4) The long whippy barrel combined with a much greater volume of gas rushing past the bullet as it exits the barrel has a negative effect on accuracy.; 5) The law of diminishing returns kicks in very fiercely: A 10% increase in bullet velocity can require a 100% or greater increase in recoil, along with the longer, heavier rifle etc. I don't have any insight into the efficiency with which the chemical energy stored in the powder is converted to bullet energy as a function of burn rate, but I suspect that slower burning powders burn quite a bit less efficiently - which, if true, contributes greatly to the diminishing returns with this approach. At a minimum, overall efficiency is reduced because more of the powder energy necessarily goes into the kinetic energy of the powder gasses.

Progressive twist is interesting because it lengthens out the pressure versus distance curve like this: Because the rifling near the breech has a slower twist, it doesn't offer as much resistance to the bullet, so that at a given pressure, the bullet accelerates more quickly near the breech, and the effective length of the chamber in which the powder burns gets bigger more quickly. The faster increase in burn chamber volume reduces the rate at which pressure and temperature build, therefore allowing the powder to burn more slowly, and thus increasing the length of the pressure v. distance curve without increasing its peak. So.... you can put in more powder without exceeding peak pressure, that powder burns more slowly than it would in a rifle with fixed twist, the pressure v. distance curve has more area under it, and bullet velocity increases.

Progressive twist would seem to be particularly attractive when you don't have much control over powder burn rates - such as with black powder, or in the early days of smokeless powders when the 6.5 mm Carcano was developed.
 
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I'm not messing with the gain twist. It doesn't improve accuracy. I want to understand it. How can it cause the bullet to accelerate?
Sorry - this was a weak attempt at humor: Gain of Function research on viruses and bacteria is so taboo (and in my opinion is SHOULD be completely taboo) that somebody might think Gain of Twist is somehow related. I was poking fun at myself by insinuating that I think Gain of Twist is related to Gain of Function.
 
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It's been a long time since I retired from physics.... math makes my brain hurt these days too!
Lets see, today is just another day I haven’t needed algebra or geometry.
That makes it a little over 50 years in a row. Wow, sure glad I took all that math.
 
Bullet energy, (and thus velocity squared), is proportional to the area of the bullet base times the area under the curve of pressure versus distance down the rifle barrel. The rate at which powder burns is an increasing function of temperature and an increasing function of pressure: Higher pressure = faster burn, Higher temp = faster burn. The velocity limiting factor with all modern powders is that the pressure peaks when the bullet is a short way down the barrel, and then it falls off rather quickly as the bullet moves farther down the barrel. To increase velocity, then, you have to figure out how to lengthen the peak of the pressure versus distance curve WITHOUT increasing the height of the curve (and thus blowing up your rifle), and/or figure out how to make the pressure v. distance curve fall off more slowly.

The "magnum" approach to higher velocities is to increase case capacity and stuff in more of a powder which burns more slowly. HIgher case capacity and slower burning powder keep pressure from building too quickly, and also provides a bigger reservoir of high pressure gas which is replenished with burning powder over a slightly longer period of time. It works, but there are serious downsides: 1) All that hot gas rushing out of the chamber erodes the barrel throat more quickly; 2) The extra powder increases recoil and muzzle blast tremendously (To calculate recoil, the empirical rule is that the momentum of the recoiling rifle will equal the bullet mass x bullet velocity + the mass of the powder x bullet velocity x 1.5. So... increasing powder by 10 grains increases recoil momentum the same amount as increasing bullet weight by 15 grains.); 3) To realize much increase in velocity, you need a magnum length action and a long barrel, which makes for a longer, heavier rifle with a whippy barrel.; 4) The long whippy barrel combined with a much greater volume of gas rushing past the bullet as it exits the barrel has a negative effect on accuracy.; 5) The law of diminishing returns kicks in very fiercely: A 10% increase in bullet velocity can require a 100% or greater increase in recoil, along with the longer, heavier rifle etc. I don't have any insight into the efficiency with which the chemical energy stored in the powder is converted to bullet energy as a function of burn rate, but I suspect that slower burning powders burn quite a bit less efficiently - which, if true, contributes greatly to the diminishing returns with this approach. At a minimum, overall efficiency is reduced because more of the powder energy necessarily goes into the kinetic energy of the powder gasses.

Progressive twist is interesting because it lengthens out the pressure versus distance curve like this: Because the rifling near the breech has a slower twist, it doesn't offer as much resistance to the bullet, so that at a given pressure, the bullet accelerates more quickly near the breech, and the effective length of the chamber in which the powder burns gets bigger more quickly. The faster increase in burn chamber volume reduces the rate at which pressure and temperature build, therefore allowing the powder to burn more slowly, and thus increasing the length of the pressure v. distance curve without increasing its peak. So.... you can put in more powder without exceeding peak pressure, that powder burns more slowly than it would in a rifle with fixed twist, the pressure v. distance curve has more area under it, and bullet velocity increases.

Progressive twist would seem to be particularly attractive when you don't have much control over powder burn rates - such as with black powder, or in the early days of smokeless powders when the 6.5 mm Carcano was developed.
What you said… and I’m still tempted to have a Hoyt barrel built, gain twist, final rate 1:20” 32” x 1” to fit my best Renegade stock or Allen Boxlock. If it’s possible to get .45-110 ballistics from a 10# .45-90 it would be worth doing for long days at the butts.
Or, as my old man wou say, “Son, if you keep trying to pick fly **** out of the pepper you’ll end up with precious little pepper.” Quien sabes… until we try.
 
If it were as cheap to cut as standard fixed rate rifling I suppose that’s all we would use.
Yet once the rate of twist is set, that is dialed into the machinery, then it should be no harder than straight rifling. Again, I'm not against it, but it is not universally used and those things that work better usually are, even with added cost. Just saying.
But you are correct, if it cost's more it isn't likely to be done. Using machinery that can cut gain rifling may well be much more costly and more difficult, but with today's CNC computer controlled equipment it wouldn't be hard.
 
If it were as cheap to cut as standard fixed rate rifling I suppose that’s all we would use.
Who said it costs more? Doesn't Colerain make them for the same price?

I was told, for the twist transition to work really well, you need a longer barrel.
The guy I talked to made the barrels 42" or 44" long.
If the barrel is too short, the transition maybe too quick and little is gained by the twist. No pun intended.
 
What you said… and I’m still tempted to have a Hoyt barrel built, gain twist, final rate 1:20” 32” x 1” to fit my best Renegade stock or Allen Boxlock. If it’s possible to get .45-110 ballistics from a 10# .45-90 it would be worth doing for long days at the butts.
Or, as my old man wou say, “Son, if you keep trying to pick fly **** out of the pepper you’ll end up with precious little pepper.” Quien sabes… until we try.
Gotta say... I'm really tempted to have a progressive twist barrel made and give it a test drive! I'm guessing that progressive twist is a little more expensive to manufacture, but as DRPatton says, with modern CNC machining, in may not be much at all.
 
Who said it costs more? Doesn't Colerain make them for the same price?

I was told, for the twist transition to work really well, you need a longer barrel.
The guy I talked to made the barrels 42" or 44" long.
If the barrel is too short, the transition maybe too quick and little is gained by the twist. No pun intended.
I like the pun! 😉
 
But again, if it’s clearly recognized to be superior by the majority it will be eventually adopted by the majority. But it isn’t. Nothing against gain rifling but most simply don’t benefit enough to go to it.
It is also harder to rifle the barrel, some custom modern center fire barrels have it in today
 
I see the gain twist's value in muzzloading being in long, high sectional density bullets in need of a long twist rate. Even a hard alloy may not be able to keep up with some of the twists required, so a gain twist is the prefect solution.

I can see its application being used in in-lines with fast twists to stabilize a much smaller bullet carried by a sabot.

The gain twist is not a new fad, idea, device or contrivance. It's been around close to 200 years. The Hawken Brothers used it in some of their rifles. So it is well tried and verified.

Shooters may buy barrels with the gain twist, for applications which would not benefit its use. But, there is nothing wrong with experimenting. I'm all for that.

As far as I am concerned, I have too much on my plate right now to consider it.
 

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