What muzzleloaders can shoot smokeless? Any sidelocks?

[JeffB1961]

Click the load Data Tab on the woodman arms website.
Here is what I copied from that page:
.45 caliber 1-20 twist cut rifled barrel. (This is a different Barrel and the only one which is suitable for smokeless powder)

This barrel is great for full bore bullets that are sized with a smooth sizing die. Fury and Parker offer great 250, 275 and 300 grain bullets for use in this.

If you wish to shoot smokeless powder, please contact Mark Woodman at [email protected]

so the 1:18 barrel is only BP ......
hopefully mwwoodman will come back and let us know how much of what smokeless with a 250-300 grain bullet is the max recommended load and what fps we can expect with that load . or maybe someone here already knows ?

 

[d414hiker]

I Asked Mark Woodman "Could you give me a load or two which would comply? As ln Grains of ??? powder with ??? Gr bullet weight?"
He Replied:
"With full bore, sized bullets,
58 gr by weight H4198 and Parker 310 gr black max. This has good recoil too"

 

[d414hiker]

https://www.shootingsoftware.com/pressure.htm

If we don't know what the bursting pressure for a given barrel is, what good is it?

 

[The long rider]

Sounds like a pipe bomb!

 

[mwwoodman]

Pressure trace is non destructive. You simply glue a strain gauge on the barrel. I have one and still have not had time to try it. I also have a piezo sensor in a barrel, that is destructive because I have a hole in the chamber. I thought of making a breech plug that would accept that sensor, and have a port for ignition to get in there. The manufacturer of my sensor kind of told me it would not work correctly but I don't really buy that.
The problem with Pressure trace, you need to calibrate it with known something. That known something is tough to get with a muzzleloader. I could do it once I have a known pressure from the piezo system. I forget the gentlemen's name at pressure trace but I've had long conversations with him. He said that chrome-moly steel is way more accurate when assuming the data is correct in pressure trace, in particular Poissons ratio. Evidently 416 is not so consistent and unless you know the exact data, you can't get accurate measurements until you can calibrate pressure trace. Makes perfect sense to me.

 

[mwwoodman]

My first and only question is, does applying extremely high voltages to the gun metal, change or alter the metal in any way? Gun metal is different from normal copper or aluminum wires carrying an electrical current.

Groups or clubs may be able to afford this tester.
Personally, I believe it's neat, but unless I was a gunsmith, I would have no real World use for it.

it is only a strain gauge on the end of that little 2 conductor wire. no voltage goes in the barrel.

 

[Greg_E]

If we don't know what the bursting pressure for a given barrel is, what good is it?

That is a very good point. If you knew the exact formula for the metal, you could calculate the deform and bursting pressures, there are calculators for these things that we use with airgun cylinders to see if XYZ is safe at ABC pressure. Generally you need the material, inside diameter, outside diameter and often the diameter and thread pitch of the plug or cap. I know they are pretty accurate at pressures up to about 10000 psi (for burst) and diameters up to 3 inches for aluminum, titanium, and stainless (the 3 popular materials for airguns). We are normally at 4500 psi working pressure or less.

 

[d414hiker]

That is a very good point. If you knew the exact formula for the metal, you could calculate the deform and bursting pressures, there are calculators for these things that we use with airgun cylinders to see if XYZ is safe at ABC pressure. Generally you need the material, inside diameter, outside diameter and often the diameter and thread pitch of the plug or cap. I know they are pretty accurate at pressures up to about 10000 psi (for burst) and diameters up to 3 inches for aluminum, titanium, and stainless (the 3 popular materials for airguns). We are normally at 4500 psi working pressure or less.

I was very interested in Air Rifles for several years. Unfortunately the difficulty with coming up with an available air supply killed it for me. I have 2 powerful and accurate air rifles that are unusable for that reason. A 32 cal corsair and a western Big Bore 45 cal that yields 620 Ft. Lbs. of energy.

 

[Greg_E]

Battery powered compressor (GX brand), a few makes out there but any 12 volt compressor can be made to use tool batteries. Very off topic for this forum, but of interest. DIY power tool battery powered compressor? - Airguns & Guns Forum used it a few times on my modded Bulldog and Umarex Hammer, both are pretty hungry guns.

 

[d414hiker]

Battery powered compressor (GX brand), a few makes out there but any 12 volt compressor can be made to use tool batteries. Very off topic for this forum, but of interest. DIY power tool battery powered compressor? - Airguns & Guns Forum used it a few times on my modded Bulldog and Umarex Hammer, both are pretty hungry guns.

Thanks. For now I'm going to stay in the powder gun world.

 

[mwwoodman]

That is a very good point. If you knew the exact formula for the metal, you could calculate the deform and bursting pressures, there are calculators for these things that we use with airgun cylinders to see if XYZ is safe at ABC pressure. Generally you need the material, inside diameter, outside diameter and often the diameter and thread pitch of the plug or cap. I know they are pretty accurate at pressures up to about 10000 psi (for burst) and diameters up to 3 inches for aluminum, titanium, and stainless (the 3 popular materials for airguns). We are normally at 4500 psi working pressure or less.

 

[JimA]

I was very interested in Air Rifles for several years. Unfortunately the difficulty with coming up with an available air supply killed it for me. I have 2 powerful and accurate air rifles that are unusable for that reason. A 32 cal corsair and a western Big Bore 45 cal that yields 620 Ft. Lbs. of energy.

This is what I use to charge PCP air rifles.

 

[michiganmuzzy]

This is what I use to charge PCP air rifles.

How long have you had that one? Im looking for one but keep hearing about longevity and mods to make them work right and last longer.

 

[michiganmuzzy]

I never have used smokeless in a muzzleloader. I don't have the knowledge or experience to even try it. But I am curious as to what rifles are able to shoot it? I read a couple articles over 20 years ago, where people shot or tested a Ruger "Old Army" with smokeless and it worked fine.

So, how do you know what can and what should not fire smokeless?

Thanks

HV Muzzleloader has a thread about a ‘Safety Cartridge’ he is making that uses a low pressure smokeless powder. A search here should find it easily.

 

[michiganmuzzy]

so the 1:18 barrel is only BP ......
hopefully mwwoodman will come back and let us know how much of what smokeless with a 250-300 grain bullet is the max recommended load and what fps we can expect with that load . or maybe someone here already knows ?

I had the .45 1:18” Patriot. It has a McGowan barrel and i shot mild smokeless loads in it with 200 grain bullets. It would handle loads very similar to my 45/70 conversion sml.

 

[JimA]

How long have you had that one? Im looking for one but keep hearing about longevity and mods to make them work right and last longer.

Not really sure but at least 5 years. Works fine so far. Oops, might only be 3 years according to the date on the photo file. I don't judge time very well. I'm an old guy!

 

[d414hiker]

Not really sure but at least 5 years. Works fine so far. Oops, might only be 3 years according to the date on the photo file. I don't judge time very well. I'm an old guy!

I would love to know more about the "safety Cartridge". Could you send me more info or even a link to the manufacturer.

 

[michiganmuzzy]

I would love to know more about the "safety Cartridge". Could you send me more info or even a link to the manufacturer.

Not sure if he’s manufacturing them or still in the R&D stage and looking for investors…

https://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/...zleloaders-with-no-corrosive-oxidizers.42352/

 

[HV-Muzzleloaders]

I would love to know more about the "safety Cartridge". Could you send me more info or even a link to the manufacturer.

Ben Langlotz is a Patent attorney in Texas who specializes in firearms patents. He submitted the Utility Patent to the USPTO a few days ago for the "Self-Ejecting Muzzleloader Safety Cartridge".

I am now in the process of contacting manufacturers who have the equipment to mass produce the cartridge. My goal is to sell the idea to a company willing to make the product for the market.


This concept sets a new standard for muzzleloading rifles in the same way shotgun shells have become standardized to work in any factory shotgun. Each shotshell combines a given load of shot with the proper powder to produce the required safe pressure. This muzzloader cartridge uses the same concept. The projectile and powder are matched to produce the required safe pressure in any muzzleloading factory rifle. The safe pressure is determined by the manufacturer and the companies producing the rifles.

Below is the shorter version of the video which demonstrates the product.

 

[smokepolehall]

Whew, there be a world of diff in many of the ML/blk.powder bbl's than smokeless powder bbl's. I really don't know the lbs per sq. inch on blk. powder but those smokeless have to be 42,000 or more n they use a brass case also.. There is a world of diff in 12L14 n 1137 compared to 4140 n 4150