What muzzleloaders can shoot smokeless? Any sidelocks?

[smokepolehall]

I never have used smokeless in a muzzleloader. I don't have the knowledge or experience to even try it. But I am curious as to what rifles are able to shoot it? I read a couple articles over 20 years ago, where people shot or tested a Ruger "Old Army" with smokeless and it worked fine.

So, how do you know what can and what should not fire smokeless?

Thanks

I don't know of any Blk. powder ML's that were made to shoot smokeless. I had a centerfire 45-70 converted to smokeless. It was already designed to shoot it

 

[user 30577]

Smokeless is a no-no.
This is what happens when you mix smokeless and BP together in a muzzleloading barrel.
Start at the 7:20 mark to see why:

 

[HV-Muzzleloaders]

Smokeless is a no-no.
This is what happens when you mix smokeless and BP together in a muzzleloading barrel.
Start at the 7:20 mark to see why:

If you were trying to destroy a rifle barrel with smokeless powder W231 was an excellent choice, because it is a fast-burning pistol powder, which I use in my 45 ACP in very small amounts. (5.9 gr of W231 is max with a 185 gr bullet in Lee manual)

I plugged some numbers into the QuickLoad computer program, which can calculate the pressure produced by a given combination of bullet and powder.

I selected the .50-110 case, and a 185 grain bullet.
(This will approximate the situation in a 50 cal. muzzleloader barrel with no case.)


I selected 90 gr. of W231 powder and adjusted the seating depth until it was near 100% Load Density.
The calculated pressure was 127,658 psi, which is much more than your barrel can handle.


I then did the same calculation with 90 gr. of H4895 because it is a powder many are using in their smokeless muzzleloaders, which are designed to use smokeless powder.
The calculated pressure was 21,720 psi, which is a pressure that is much more reasonable.

Please do not use any smokeless powder in any muzzleloader not designed to use smokeless powder.


However, this experiment only perpetuated the myth that smokeless powder cannot be used safely in any muzzleloader.
The Savage 10ML muzzleloader destroyed that myth many years ago.


.

 

[Hausser1]

https://www.shootingsoftware.com/pressure.htm

AAAWWWW! Now look what you've gone and done! I'm supposed to be cleaning stuff out of my work area, not adding to it....
Time to start packing,.. again...

 

[Hausser1]

damned enablers...

 

[user 30577]

If you were trying to destroy a rifle barrel with smokeless powder W231 was an excellent choice, because it is a fast-burning pistol powder, which I use in my 45 ACP in very small amounts. (5.9 gr of W231 is max with a 185 gr bullet in Lee manual)

I plugged some numbers into the QuickLoad computer program, which can calculate the pressure produced by a given combination of bullet and powder.

I selected the .50-110 case, and a 185 grain bullet.
(This will approximate the situation in a 50 cal. muzzleloader barrel with no case.)


I selected 90 gr. of W231 powder and adjusted the seating depth until it was near 100% Load Density.
The calculated pressure was 127,658 psi, which is much more than your barrel can handle.


I then did the same calculation with 90 gr. of H4895 because it is a powder many are using in their smokeless muzzleloaders, which are designed to use smokeless powder.
The calculated pressure was 21,720 psi, which is a pressure that is much more reasonable.

Please do not use any smokeless powder in any muzzleloader not designed to use smokeless powder.


However, this experiment only perpetuated the myth that smokeless powder cannot be used safely in any muzzleloader.
The Savage 10ML muzzleloader destroyed that myth many years ago.


.

Excellent research!
I agree with you...,smokeless should be NEVER be used in muzzleloader.
We can't say that often enough.

 

[ElDiablo]

I agree with you...,smokeless should be NEVER be used in muzzleloader THAT WASN’T DESIGNED FOR SMOKELESS
We can't say that often enough.

Fixed it for you ^

 

[HV-Muzzleloaders]

Excellent research!
I agree with you...,smokeless should be NEVER be used in muzzleloader.

Unless the muzzleloader is built to handle the pressures of smokeless powder...

The Savage 10ML was the first factory muzzleloader built to use smokeless powder, to the best of my knowledge. Thousands of those rifles have been used safely for many years.

 

[user 30577]

Fixed it for you ^

OK..
Your mileage may vary, but, I'm not loading smokeless powder in muzzleloaders.
I've seen what that can do to barrels.
That's not for me, good conversation, thanks.

 

[ElDiablo]

See HV’s post #43 above. An inappropriate amount of the wrong powder will destroy any barrel.

Many hundreds of thousands (or more) shots have been fired in ML rifles/barrels designed for smokeless like the Savage 10ml. Nothing inherently unsafe about it. Less room for error with a double charge or double load? Yes, that’s probably fair to say.

 

[bronko220002]

Only specific muzzleloaders are designated as smokeless. But all muzzleloaders will shoot smokeless ONCE and I wouldn't want to be the one pulling the trigger!

 

[GM54-120]

Every single time i see the SKY IS FALLING posts about smokeless, some guy just has to use a fast pistol powder in huge amounts for dramatic effect. CVA did the exact same thing using 120grV of HS6 iirc.

Well DUH, what did you expect when using a large amount of fast burning powder? Do you imagine the result would be different if you loaded up a 50cal BMG or a 408Cheytac case with HS6?

 

[GM54-120]

I guarantee if you used nearly any other commonly used SML powder in this video it would not be nearly as dramatic. Nay sayers though want that dramatic effect to instill fear in others or they would use powders we commonly use. They would use amounts of powder we would use. Not 120grs of a pistol powder.

 

[ElDiablo]

I guarantee if you used nearly any other commonly used SML powder in this video it would not be nearly as dramatic. Nay sayers though want that dramatic effect to instill fear in others or they would use powders we commonly use. They would use amounts of powder we would use. Not 120grs of a pistol powder.

Lots of exaggeration and BS in ol’ Dudley’s video. Unless I missed it, not once did he say “unless your muzzleloader is rated for smokeless.” And “never use 3F in any rifle?” Someone needs to give this guy a lesson in muzzleloading…

 

[HV-Muzzleloaders]

I guarantee if you used nearly any other commonly used SML powder in this video it would not be nearly as dramatic. Nay sayers though want that dramatic effect to instill fear in others or they would use powders we commonly use. They would use amounts of powder we would use. Not 120grs of a pistol powder.

I have been thinking about doing a "Myth Buster" video showing what happens when we use a powder like Acc 4064 in the same situation.

How long has it been since Savage proved smokeless powder can be used safely in a muzzleloader?

We know If you load a 30-06 case with a pistol powder, the same thing will happen.

 

[GM54-120]

And “never use 3F in any rifle?”

I was told by CVA customer service that using 3FG in any CVA rifle would void my warranty if they found out. Funny too because 3 pellets makes more peak than 130grV of Triple7 3F. They are totally ok with 3 pellet loads.

 

[drpatton]

I don't have the knowledge or expertise to use smokeless powder in a muzzleloader.
That doesn't mean others do not. There are many who use smokeless most or all of the time. They know what they are doing. If they didn't, there wouldn't be very many of them.

 

[jbs27572]

The video is entertaining but of little value on whether or not to mix powders IMO. He used WAY too much and virtually guarantied failure. I was amazed that 90 gr Win 231 didn't blow that barrel to pieces. BP has a very fast burn rate compared to most smokeless powders so I don't think Win 231 was an unreasonable choice based on burn rate. If I was an idiot or a newbie that didn't know better, that is a powder I might have chosen to approximate the burn rate of BP.

I would have liked to see a "reasonable" test with powder charges that some newbie idiot might actually try. I don't know; something like 10 or 20 gr by weight of Win 231 or 40 gr by weight of a 50% mixture of BP and Win 231.

 

[bronko220002]

I don't know how it is now but in the past muzzleloader barrels were not pressure tested/test fired like CF rifles.

 

[HV-Muzzleloaders]

The video is entertaining but of little value on whether or not to mix powders IMO. He used WAY too much and virtually guarantied failure. I was amazed that 90 gr Win 231 didn't blow that barrel to pieces. BP has a very fast burn rate compared to most smokeless powders so I don't think Win 231 was an unreasonable choice based on burn rate. If I was an idiot or a newbie that didn't know better, that is a powder I might have chosen to approximate the burn rate of BP.

I would have liked to see a "reasonable" test with powder charges that some newbie idiot might actually try. I don't know; something like 10 or 20 gr by weight of Win 231 or 40 gr by weight of a 50% mixture of BP and Win 231.

The title of the video should have been "How to blow up a rifle barrel", because that was his original purpose for making the video.

We could do the same thing and blow up any centerfire barrel with a large amount of pistol powder.