What powder to replace Goex

[deermanok]

I shot Goex 2f for years until a gentleman that I knew, gifted me about 5 pounds of Goex 3f. Was better than 2f. A couple years ago, I bought some Old Ensyford 3f, better yet. Then I got some Swiss 3f. I'm sold on the Swiss now. Last year, I bought some Swiss 2f just to try it.
I haven't shot much of the 2f yet but I do like it alot.
I don't have a chronograph but I can tell that the Swiss definitely has more ummph than other brands.

 

[rfd]

When I got into BPCR for long distance competition I started using Swiss 1-1/2F and never looked back.

My trad flintlocks are sporting guns and I used pretty much any brand or granularity, but when the Elephant, Wano, and Goex ran out many years ago I just replaced them with Swiss as well. I also like loading tube and pan from horn and settled on Swiss 3F, which renders consistent fast ignition. However, last year I did some testing with Swiss 1-1/2F in the flinters and almost couldn't tell the ignition difference with 3F. Actually, in humid weather I did get slightly better ignition with the 1-1/2F, as expected with a coarser powder. 1-1/2F in a .62 smoothbore is pretty close to how it was done back in the 18th century, what fun.

 

[Are. M.]

Anything you can find these days. Scheutzen. Swiss. Pyrodex in a caplock.

 

[Dave951]

Pyrodex in a caplock.

Just say NO. Swiss and Schuetzen are readily available.

 

[ElDiablo]

Some recent Goex news:

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-rel...black-powder-production-legacy-301470912.html

 

[Jitterbug]

Three days ago I started searching for real black powder online, not for me as I've got Many pounds, but for folks in need these weird dayze.

I spoke with Jon @ AddictedToBlackPowder.com and here's the scoop on his powder cost and current in-stock availability ...

Swiss $27.00/lb - 1FG, 1.5 FG, 4FG

Swiss Caviar (this is special spherical black powder) $29/lb 2FG

Schuetzen $18.5/lb - 2FG, 3FG

Goex $20/lb - 1FG

Goex Ole Ensford $22/lb - 1FG

Powder can be purchased as little as a 1lb can, and on up to a 25lb or 50lb case.

Shipments can be of mixed brands and granulations.

For ALL flintlocks, you really only need one granulation, 3F, works perfectly fast in the pan ... I've even tested out 2F and it's just as good, if not better for damp/wet weather as it will not accumulate as much humidity. Remember, back in the day (18th and 19th centuries) 2F was rare as hen's teeth and 1F was the norm.

Shipping is Fed Ex based on weight and zip code - This is dependent on shipping distance and will include a HazMat fee AND a "Covid-19 handling" fee. Jon estimates between $70 and $120 for a 25lb carton. Clearly, the more you buy the cheaper per pound the powder becomes. This is where group buys are the way to go, and stock pile what you can because times will be getting tougher for the Holy Black.

As an example, 25lbs of Schuetzen 2F or 3F will cost $462.50 +$70 to $120 shipping, for a final cost of between $532.50 and $582.50, for a final cost per pound of $21.30 to $23.30.

CCI 4 Wing musket caps / RWS 4 Wing $ 100/ 1000
Rws 1075+ (works for # 10 or # 11) $ 90 / 1000

Jon Blackert
22515 150 East St
Mineral, Il 61344

www.addictedtoblackpowder.com

Office / Home (815) 542-6287
Cell (309) 945-2666

Update: as of a half hour ago, Jon says he is completely out of any FFFFg. Jon still has Schuetzen in FFg and FFFg granulations.

I placed an order (my first) with him, and he was good to deal with.

FWIW, Graf & Sons also has Schuetzen black powder, as well as their private label (possibly rebranded Schuetzen?).

Graf’s prices are several dollars a pound higher than Jon, but they have cheap shipping. MIGHT be able to make up the difference, with a very large order…

Thanks to “rfd” for exposing me to Jon’s business!

 

[rfd]

If yer a competition shooter for ML or BPCR, my personal preference is for Swiss. Other than that, anything else in a sporting black powder will be just fine. For the flinters, I've found over the decades that there is no need for super fine (4F, null B) pan powder. In fact, the more I use it these dayze I'm liking 1-1/2F just as much as 3F.

 

[Blackrock]

When Hodgdon announced Goex termination I called T/C and asked what did they recommend as a replacement (I have a '75 Hawken .45) they told me Pyrodex. I asked about other BP's and they said 'I could...' but they recommend Pyrodex. Probably academic now as Estes Energetics purchased GOEX assets and will continue with production and plan to grow production. They are the same company that sells model rockets and model rocket engines which use BP (as do fireworks). They made the announcement on 01/31/22. I've not tried Swiss but plan to switch as most of the better competition shooters use it inc for BP cartridges. AS now retired, trying to learn to be competent at long range BP shooting.

 

[Dave951]

When Hodgdon announced Goex termination I called T/C and asked what did they recommend as a replacement (I have a '75 Hawken .45) they told me Pyrodex. I asked about other BP's and they said 'I could...' but they recommend Pyrodex. Probably academic now as Estes Energetics purchased GOEX assets and will continue with production and plan to grow production. They are the same company that sells model rockets and model rocket engines which use BP (as do fireworks). They made the announcement on 01/31/22. I've not tried Swiss but plan to switch as most of the better competition shooters use it inc for BP cartridges. AS now retired, trying to learn to be competent at long range BP shooting.

There are other brands besides Goex. I used to shoot Old Eynsford, a Goex premium powder, for competition. I've since changed over completely to Swiss with no issues either in fouling or accuracy.

 

[Blackrock]

There are other brands besides Goex. I used to shoot Old Eynsford, a Goex premium powder, for competition. I've since changed over completely to Swiss with no issues either in fouling or accuracy.

You make my point. Supposedly Swiss has improved performance over Goex by virtue of a higher quality charcoal (uses only Alder wood as opposed to GOEX that uses wood for charcoal from multiple varieties)... Looking at several LR Comp shoots the majority of high placers used SWISS

 

[Dave951]

You make my point. Supposedly Swiss has improved performance over Goex by virtue of a higher quality charcoal (uses only Alder wood as opposed to GOEX that uses wood for charcoal from multiple varieties)... Looking at several LR Comp shoots the majority of high placers used SWISS

I shoot competition and there's no "supposed" to it. Swiss is simply the best black powder available for serious shooters who want the best performance possible from their guns. Goex as a brand has a premium product for competition shooting that many don't know about- Old Eynsford. I used to shoot it and it's far better than the regular stuff. I'd say it was fairly comparable to Swiss in many ways. With the recent problems at Goex and their lack of support of black powder youth shooting sports, I've completely switched to Swiss and I'm still getting great results. If you buy it by the case, there is a price discount that makes it about the same as Old E.

 

[Blackrock]

I shoot competition and there's no "supposed" to it. Swiss is simply the best black powder available for serious shooters who want the best performance possible from their guns. Goex as a brand has a premium product for competition shooting that many don't know about- Old Eynsford. I used to shoot it and it's far better than the regular stuff. I'd say it was fairly comparable to Swiss in many ways. With the recent problems at Goex and their lack of support of black powder youth shooting sports, I've completely switched to Swiss and I'm still getting great results. If you buy it by the case, there is a price discount that makes it about the same as Old E.

The "supposedly" comes from Swiss people themselves. I am paraphrasing. They say their powder is better/best as they only use alder wood and make the charcoal themselves as opposed to their competition which buy charcoal from multiple sources using different wood species. I don't know if that's the reason or not but lots of experienced shooters, yourself included, have a definite proclivity for Swiss -- even at it's extra cost. Estes as of a week and a half ago, claims they will reopen the BP factory and manufacture both GOEX and Old Eynsford.
When I asked T/C about what to substitute I just got the stock answer "BP or Pyrodex"
Pyrodex and GOEX are all that's available locally -- any of the others would be online. While I would like to try several and see which one(s) my gun likes but I don't have the resources to buy multiple pounds of different BP and pay multiple hazmat fees so I read and need to rely on the advice of others. Given your experience with multiple BP's do you have any experience with Swiss Caviar BP? I read mixed reviews. Also, any experience with "Black MZ" BP by Alliant? Or just stick with Swiss?
Thx

 

[rfd]

Swiss "Caviar" is a physical ball version of black powder, instead of a physical granular shape. I have no experience with Caviar. Jon has (or had?) some available. I'm settled on granular Swiss 1-1/2F (BPCR and ML) and Swiss 3F (ML only), and I'm well stocked with both. When the 3F is gone I'll only be using 1-1/2F for both BPCR and my flintlock smoothbore and rifle.

IMHO, in the BPCR arena Swiss is king, followed by Olde Eynsford. The same is true for ML comps. Swiss is king. Period. Nothing like it or surpasses it, so far. It is a clear competition advantage, and thus that spills over for sporting usage as well.

No matter what flavor of BP firearm in yer safe, a 25# case of Swiss (pick whatever grain size suits yer fancy) is the way to go, no need to test out any other type/brand of real black powder. One case, one hazmat and shipping fee - maybe shared with another person(s). And in doing so, yer set and never have to visit threads like this. Too many buck$ for the outlay? Trust me, where there's a will, there's a way. This is one sure time that the guys using subs will be singing "bp rules and subs drool", once the real deal is tasted.

 

[Dave951]

Swiss "Caviar" is a physical ball version of black powder, instead of a physical granular shape. I have no experience with Caviar. Jon has (or had?) some available. I'm settled on granular Swiss 1-1/2F (BPCR and ML) and Swiss 3F (ML only), and I'm well stocked with both. When the 3F is gone I'll only be using 1-1/2F for both BPCR and my flintlock smoothbore and rifle.

IMHO, in the BPCR arena Swiss is king, followed by Olde Eynsford. The same is true for ML comps. Swiss is king. Period. Nothing like it or surpasses it, so far. It is a clear competition advantage, and thus that spills over for sporting usage as well.

No matter what flavor of BP firearm in yer safe, a 25# case of Swiss (pick whatever grain size suits yer fancy) is the way to go, no need to test out any other type/brand of real black powder. One case, one hazmat and shipping fee - maybe shared with another person(s). And in doing so, yer set and never have to visit threads like this. Too many buck$ for the outlay? Trust me, where there's a will, there's a way. This is one sure time that the guys using subs will be singing "bp rules and subs drool", once the real deal is tasted.

What RFD said^^^^^

One advantage of Swiss over the others is it's a bit more "energetic" so if you're shooting for accuracy, fouling is less and you use less powder to get better accuracy so you get more shots per pound. I know lots of folks only look at the up front cost, but what we've told you is real. Buy it by the case and the cost drops a bit and amortizes out the shipping and hazmat.

 

[Dave951]

..........Estes as of a week and a half ago, claims they will reopen the BP factory and manufacture both GOEX and Old Eynsford..........

When I asked T/C about what to substitute I just got the stock answer "BP or Pyrodex"

Pyrodex and GOEX are all that's available locally ........... Also, any experience with "Black MZ" BP by Alliant? Or just stick with Swiss?
Thx

When the Goex brand was owned by Dupont and later Hogdon, their main customer was the US Gov/Military, not us. Goex, using that term as a company regardless of ownership, has a history of accidents. Hogdon bought brand and had another accident and they refused to support black powder youth shooting sports. We'll see if that changes under new management. At the very least, I hope for no more accidents and loss of life. Will the "new" Old E stack up? Again, we'll see. Swiss is a very hard act to follow.

Asking T/C, of course they're going to say Pyrodex and Goex, they're domestic products and that's what they've been advocating since they started. A change now would entail a legal review by their liability lawyers. Thousands of competition shooters in this country and nearly all shoot Swiss and some Old E, that alone should speak volumes about quality.

Caviar? No experience with it, but I plan to explore it in my 50/70 when I put in my next powder order. I usually buy a case about every 6mo of Swiss 3f. As for Black MZ, I've actually tried each of the subs as they've come out. Nothing will replace Swiss at this point. I like accuracy and consistency. Of the subs, so far I thing T7 is decent but it does have some issues with fouling in that it can leave a hard "ring" someplace in the bore that will kill accuracy. That's a no go for me. The other issue with nearly every sub is they're all harder to ignite. Some will only be consistent with 209s. Real black is much easier and that goes across all brands/grades.

 

[Blackrock]

Swiss "Caviar" is a physical ball version of black powder, instead of a physical granular shape. I have no experience with Caviar. Jon has (or had?) some available. I'm settled on granular Swiss 1-1/2F (BPCR and ML) and Swiss 3F (ML only), and I'm well stocked with both. When the 3F is gone I'll only be using 1-1/2F for both BPCR and my flintlock smoothbore and rifle.

IMHO, in the BPCR arena Swiss is king, followed by Olde Eynsford. The same is true for ML comps. Swiss is king. Period. Nothing like it or surpasses it, so far. It is a clear competition advantage, and thus that spills over for sporting usage as well.

No matter what flavor of BP firearm in yer safe, a 25# case of Swiss (pick whatever grain size suits yer fancy) is the way to go, no need to test out any other type/brand of real black powder. One case, one hazmat and shipping fee - maybe shared with another person(s). And in doing so, yer set and never have to visit threads like this. Too many buck$ for the outlay? Trust me, where there's a will, there's a way. This is one sure time that the guys using subs will be singing "bp rules and subs drool", once the real deal is tasted.

Swiss "Caviar" is a physical ball version of black powder, instead of a physical granular shape. I have no experience with Caviar. Jon has (or had?) some available. I'm settled on granular Swiss 1-1/2F (BPCR and ML) and Swiss 3F (ML only), and I'm well stocked with both. When the 3F is gone I'll only be using 1-1/2F for both BPCR and my flintlock smoothbore and rifle.

IMHO, in the BPCR arena Swiss is king, followed by Olde Eynsford. The same is true for ML comps. Swiss is king. Period. Nothing like it or surpasses it, so far. It is a clear competition advantage, and thus that spills over for sporting usage as well.

No matter what flavor of BP firearm in yer safe, a 25# case of Swiss (pick whatever grain size suits yer fancy) is the way to go, no need to test out any other type/brand of real black powder. One case, one hazmat and shipping fee - maybe shared with another person(s). And in doing so, yer set and never have to visit threads like this. Too many buck$ for the outlay? Trust me, where there's a will, there's a way. This is one sure time that the guys using subs will be singing "bp rules and subs drool", once the real deal is tasted.

Thank you for the excellent advice and info. So Swiss it is and my next question is answered as well, what size Swiss? 1-1/2F is the consensus answer. Experience speaks volumes and I would be a fool to not listen...so thank you both -- again

 

[rfd]

My advice is to pony up for Swiss. It's really that much better than the rest, with OE a near second ... but I'd still rather have Swiss.

As to the granulation, for most BPCR applications it's gonna be 1-1/2F.

For muzzleloaders, it will depend not so much on the powder granulation, but for what gun and its intent. For me, that means Swiss 3F for my flinters. I don't use as much powder as needed with 2F, and ignition is like caplock fast most of the time. That's my staple; BPCR gets 1-1/2F and all MLs (.32 to .62) get 3F. Going larger in granule size might be a minor problem for the small calibers like under .45 bore size - I said *might*. However, 3F covers all bases and is quite potent, so if yer loading 80 or 90 grains of Goex for yer .50 or .54, 70 or 80 grains might yield the same sight settings and target results. Using 3F with flinters means one powder horn for both tube and pan - no need for a priming horn loaded with 4F or null B.

While fine powder like 3F packs more of a punch per same volume as 2F, it's also more hygroscopic and on humid/moist days may create ignition issues. Last year I started testing out Swiss 1-1/2F for both tube and pan of my .62 smoothie and found that due to its somewhat larger granule size it didn't pickup as must humidity as 3F did, and there wasn't a perceived lag time for lighting up the larger BP. After all, back in the day (18th century) most folks were loading with what was mostly on hand, 1F or even cannon types of powder.