Why don’t they make more smokeless Muzzleloaders?

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Bobby5

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Why don’t they make more smokeless Muzzleloaders? Why did they quit making the savage smokeless? What are the advantages of smokeless Muzzleloaders?
 
I suspect many reasons. The market for the main commercial builders, Rem, Win etc. would not be large. Some States do not permit smokeless and caliber restrictions.

Perhaps the real concern is safety. In a cartridge gun one usually cannot get a double load in the case, although one could use the wrong or too fast of a powder and that can be a concern. With smokeless and no case and the powder capacity is that of the barrel length it is possible to get a double load. One gets talking at the range or showing off the new firearm or distracted and a double load goes in. The results can be a barrel bulge or worst.
The company might not want to replace barrels or fingers and they just do not think the profit margin is there or in the worst cases liability or losses.
Just my opinion.
 
I would say this, since sooooo many ML shooters are seasonal types or "take 2 pellets and a PowerBelt" type....They probably are not much into reloading without a cartridge.

And that is what a SML is.....reloading without a cartridge. Its not forgiving if you make a boo boo. Its not like you accidentally added 3 pellets instead of 2. Savage book loads easily ran as high as 35kpsi and probably over 38kpsi. You wont make that kind of pressure with 120grV BH209 and a 350gr bullet sabotless in a 45cal.

Smokeless MLing is best suited to people who understand the precautions needed for CF reloading and common ML practices. Real bad idea for a novice who doesnt.
 
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The real sad thing about this is.....Western could easily make a safer powder just for SML and BPCR shooting. Just get rid of the corrosive part of BH209. Tony Knight tinkered with the idea ages ago. Alliants Reloder7 is almost there too. It just sucks with a 250gr bullet. Triple8 is just around the corner. 5744 measures out well by volume, its just not double load friendly. Good powder if you just want to use Lee Dippers and tolerate far less speed. BH209 can easily match its speed and more.

I love my NULA though. Freakishly easy to shoot and clean with N110 but you DONT want to dbl load N110.
 
Gm54- 120 you are so right!!just clean up blackhorn,,give us some hybrid powders that bridge blackhorn and some of the smokeless options,, problem is Major powder companies won't even listen to this,, just more black powder substitutes,, Western owns the market,,even consider a slightly faster burning version for lighter bullets, I see such market potential if there was just some forward-thinking
 
If I’m being honest with myself smokeless scares the you know what out of me. And yes I have one. It’s a sweet rig and shoots great but I am always on edge and nervous shooting it. I always shoot with 2 of my kids (9&12) and am very careful but I’m always second guessing myself and going through in my head the steps to make sure I did everything correct. I try not to get distracted but with my helpers always around I wonder if I did. Point is I know what I am doing and have a ton of ML experience so I couldn’t imagine the average Joe once a year shooter handling the responsibilities of smokeless.
 
Keep that edge, and that nervousness, to be honest with you it's one of the elements of muzzleloading that I like, I personally think smokeless muzzleloading should be practiced when you are by yourself, I will shoot mine occasionally with a friend or family member but very rarely, muzzleloading to me is meditative shooting, it's focused mental shooting, a discipline best practiced alone.I absolutely agree with you smokeless muzzleloading , it's just not for everyone, but then again handloading for a centerfire cartridge is not either.
 
I recently found a Savage Model 10ML-II at a gun shop. It had been neglected, had some rust on the barrel and scope mount, a charge in the chamber. I had to make a tool to remove the charge, but the barrel was pristine. I cleaned it up, took the bolt apart, and gave it to a friend at another gun shop to sell on Gunbroker. IMHO, Savage wasted its time building it.

The Savage bolt action is not nearly as strong as a break action like a CVA or Rossi. The bolt does nothing but provide a place to put the 209 primer so it can feed into the breech plug. There are no locking lugs on the bolt to support the breech plug. Make a mistake on your loadings and you are SOL; there is no margin for error. It is no wonder that Savage discontinued it.
 
Smokeless 45 Cal 1 and 20 twist rigs are the most accurate rifles hands down to me in America,, mine outshoot any creedmoor, ppc,br etc. I've ever shot, that's a pretty big statement isn't it? To me they are grad school -PhD type weapons ,I am addicted to the accuracy.all right I'll come down before I really get up on my smokeless soapbox
 
Never seen a Savage kaboom that caused the bolt to fail...NEVER and there have been several pics of them. Its at least as strong as a alloy frame CVA. The barrels were even proofed with double loads. Cant say that for CVA either.

I can name 2 powders right now that wont break 30kpsi in a 45cal with a 200gr bullet/sabot. My favorite load is barely approaching 34kpsi and shoots close to 2800fps. I could use 4198 all day long with a 250gr Fury 40cal making more speed than BH209 ever will and i bet that load wont break 32kpsi.
 
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I recently found a Savage Model 10ML-II at a gun shop. It had been neglected, had some rust on the barrel and scope mount, a charge in the chamber. I had to make a tool to remove the charge, but the barrel was pristine. I cleaned it up, took the bolt apart, and gave it to a friend at another gun shop to sell on Gunbroker. IMHO, Savage wasted its time building it.

The Savage bolt action is not nearly as strong as a break action like a CVA or Rossi. The bolt does nothing but provide a place to put the 209 primer so it can feed into the breech plug. There are no locking lugs on the bolt to support the breech plug. Make a mistake on your loadings and you are SOL; there is no margin for error. It is no wonder that Savage discontinued it.
If you got a bp launching rearward you got bigger problems than cva or rossi or any other maker can solve !!! The thread engagement of that bp is alot stronger than the barrel itself . Thats the reality of That ......
Laws of Physics......Basic Engineering 101
 
I would say this, since sooooo many ML shooters are seasonal types or "take 2 pellets and a PowerBelt" type....They probably are not much into reloading without a cartridge.

And that is what a SML is.....reloading without a cartridge. Its not forgiving if you make a boo boo. Its not like you accidentally added 3 pellets instead of 2. Savage book loads easily ran as high as 35kpsi and probably over 38kpsi. You wont make that kind of pressure with 120grV BH209 and a 350gr bullet sabotless in a 45cal.

Smokeless MLing is best suited to people who understand the precautions needed for CF reloading and common ML practices. Real bad idea for a novice who doesnt.
NAILED IT!
I too was one of those " take 2-3 pyro pellets & a PB " and never have a shot past 200yds & 80-90% under 100yds for my whole inline ml exp. but not in the 2 sidekocks i use to have. I learned .50 loose BP & PRB.
Its amazing to be finally out of that box since gettin my Paramount last yr & now an Accura V2 so the bh209 & sizing full bore bullets are a whole new exciting world to me. I cant wait to afford my first SML. Im hoping to do an Omega SML in .40 or .45 one day.
 
If you got a bp launching rearward you got bigger problems than cva or rossi or any other maker can solve !!! The thread engagement of that bp is alot stronger than the barrel itself . Thats the reality of That ......
Laws of Physics......Basic Engineering 101
Ah, but the Savage is not amenable to being played with as is the Rossi or CVA. I build my own breech plugs to take cartridge cases, then load projectiles from the front on top of the propellant.

CVA V1 1A.jpg

These are a couple of the breech plugs I made. They need support at the breech end.
 
Ah, but the Savage is not amenable to being played with as is the Rossi or CVA. I build my own breech plugs to take cartridge cases, then load projectiles from the front on top of the propellant.

View attachment 8529

These are a couple of the breech plugs I made. They need support at the breech end.
That aint a muzzleloader either . You are making your own "fiddlestick hemorphidite" !!! Good luck with that contraption . Youre not the first....
 
Ah, but the Savage is not amenable to being played with as is the Rossi or CVA. I build my own breech plugs to take cartridge cases, then load projectiles from the front on top of the propellant.

View attachment 8529

These are a couple of the breech plugs I made. They need support at the breech end.

Obviously you are WRONG. You can buy prefits for the MLII with the plug of your choice. In the caliber of your choice using a CF grade barrel from Pacnor, Brux, Douglas or McGowen just to name a few. You can buy LRMP module bolt conversions for the bolt or use a 209 primer. Using a primed case is a technology that has been dropped by nearly every single builder of SMLs. It has serious flaws and weaknesses vs using a LRMP module made from brass or bronze alloy.

There is not a snowballs chance in hell i would risk using a primed case and smokeless in a alloy frame CVA. Doing so is foolish when a CVA Hunter is well under $300 in 45/70. Center Punch USA will convert them to SML for as little as $200.
 

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