Winchester 209 Primer Sticking

[birdog]

Knight Super Disc .45 Lehigh BP with Lehigh 209 adapter. I'm shooting Parker Ballistic Extreme 275 with 84g weighed Blackhorn no wad with groups I'm very happy with. Bob bumped them up to .453 and sized them back down to about .45235 to get me started, however I think they are a little too tight going down. .452 were too loose so I think I need to be about .45225 to .4523 or somewhere close. Swinglok die is on the way.

Like I said the gun is shooting great but I'm having problems with an occasional stuck primer after about the 4th or 5th shot. I'm using Winchester blue box as was recommended by several here. Primers are a little dirty but not terrible so I know I'm getting a little blow by. The sticking issue is the brass part of the primer is swelling and hanging up inside the firing pin channel. The primer is loose and bounces around inside the primer pocket but I have to stick a small screwdriver behind the primer to pop it out.

Any ideas?

 

[sabotloader]

Which primer are you using?

 

[birdog]

I meant Winchester. Title fixed

 

[sabotloader]

I meant Winchester. Title fixed

Perfect the Winchester W209 is actually the best primer for a Lehigh because basically it is the longest. So the problem now lies in the head space.

Temporary fix for your problem.... when you get a primer stuck in the bolt... lift the bolt handle and pull the trigger this will normally drive the primer portion of the 209 prime back into the battery cup then the primer will fall out.

Now to fix the whole problem you will probably need to fix the head space in the primer is not long enough to compress when you close the bolt handle. Back when your and my Super DISC's were built the tolerance levels were not as tight as there are now. Because of this some BP ports were drilled a little deeper in some barrels. And in those days a leaking or sticking primer was kinda the expected.

If you go to this thread and read through I think it will explain everything you need to know and it really is an easy fix.

https://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/threads/shimming-the-209-primer-pocket-updated-4-7-16.28388/
It is a long thread with a few updates along the way. If you have any questions let me or others know.

Just so you know also - a company called BESTILL CREATIONS does offer a breech plug built for your rifle to take these problem away. They are somewhat expensive but he does use top-of-the-line materials to create this plug.

 

[birdog]

After reading the shimming thread it appears I may have two issues that can be fixed by shimming which is a dirty primer and a sticking primer? Is the bulging primer caused by the loose headspace? I realize a dirty primer is an indication of excessive headspace but I was not aware it could also cause the primer to stick.

 

[LarryBud]

Are you sure you don't need to change out the ventliner? My primers get sticky / bulged when there is too much back pressure from the vent hole opening up a tad.

Shimming the pocket will clean things up but we have two different issues here.

 

[birdog]

The vent liner was brand new and has about 20 shots thru it. I checked it with a pin gauge and it was good. I was thinking the same thing as you but instead of the vent liner I was wondering if I should back off on my charge? What is the life a vent liner? 40-50 shots?

 

[sabotloader]

The vent liner was brand new and has about 20 shots thru it. I checked it with a pin gauge and it was good. I was thinking the same thing as you but instead of the vent liner I was wondering if I should back off on my charge? What is the life a vent liner? 40-50 shots?

The new Lehigh Vent Liners are made of a different material than they use to be, they are also heat treated and really were intended to be used with the old Savage smokeless ML's. The new ones should well over 200 shots.

The vent liner is produced from 17-4 stainless through hardened to Rc38 - 48 and then gas carbonitited to achieve a surface hardness of Rc60. This high surface hardness reduces wear from flame erosion extending the useful life of the vent liner. Replacement is recommended when the flash hole erodes to 0.038 or if velocity loss is recognized.We advise a drop of oil, or preferred, a quality lithium or molybdenum disulfide grease be used on the vent liner threads upon installing into the breech plug body. The vent liner fits all Lehigh and Savage MLII breech plugs using removable vent liners.

Normally the sticking primer is caused by to much head space. When the rifle is fired the hammer causes the 209 primer to move forward slightly away from the face of the bolt. Then when the back pack pressure from the shot arrives it slams the the prime, actually the battery cup violently back against the face of the bolt. Since the hammer hole in the bolt is almost as large as the primer itself the momentum of the battery cup being thrown back to sudden stop causes the the primer to forced and wedged back into the opening in the face of the bolt.

 

[GM54-120]

When you have a little too much head space the anvil backs out of the 209s cup. If you recock the rifle and fire it again on the spent primer it should fall right out if this is happening.

 

[sabotloader]

As GM Said

 

[GM54-120]

My DISC 45 did it occasionally when only getting a .003 crush on a Win209. After going to a .005+ crush it has not happened. Since the length varies before firing, sticking can be somewhat random unless you sort your primers by length. Once you get more crush it will happen far less often or not at all.

Current reviews of brand new stock Win209s look like they vary more than old stock did. Ive got a box i bought a couple months ago. I just have not gotten around to confirming if mine vary a lot or not.

 

[birdog]

Thanks guys. I've got shims on the way from Mc-Carr. I ordered the shims you guys listed in the shim thread, good stuff by the way. Once shimmed will I ever have to replace them? I'm not sure how long they will last.

I never thought about re-firing on the spent primer. That would have saved me some serious frustration!

 

[sabotloader]

Probably not unless they fall out. So far I am still using and shooting the same shims as started with in my different rifles. Did you get both sizes of shims or just the larger.

I kinda hope you got both the 0.241 and the 0.248 shims. If you got the 0.0241 and you take the hammer assembly out of the bolt handle you will be able to add 0.241's to measure the number of shims needed to achieve the necessary crush.

It really is a fun project.

It should be noted what GM said about the new Winchester shims. So far the lengths of the Winchesters have not caused me a problem. But just to cover - I would suggest after you find the needed amount of shims - cycle several of the W209's on hand through and make sure you are getting a crush on each one of them. Also would suggest you mark/set aside the 209's you have crushed in your testing so you can identify them from the new primers.

 

[birdog]

I went all in and ordered the .241's and the .248's last night. I'm trying to find a video showing how to disassemble the bolt.

 

[sabotloader]

I went all in and ordered the .241's and the .248's last night. I'm trying to find a video showing how to disassemble the bolt.

It depends om which hammer assembly you have... but I am going to assume you have the FPJ bolt with the newer hammer assembly. If so... you screw the secondary safety in as far as it will go. This will will pull the hammer back compressing the hammer spring. When you have it all the way in and tight - turn the hammer assembly counter clock wise and remove the hammer assembly. Assemble in the reverse order. There is a small snag when reassembling in some hammer/bolt assemblies.

If you have the older hammer assembly from the original bolt in your Super DISC it will require a "C" tool to assemble and disassemble.

This link will also get you to some videos

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...bolt&qpvt=disassemble+a+Knight+bolt&FORM=VDRE

 

[birdog]

Thanks sabotloader and everyone else for all your help. Shims arrived Saturday and after stripping the bolt down and going through the process I have what I believe is correct headspace. I will be testing everything sometime this week.

 

[sabotloader]

birdog - darn you are quick into completing this project. If you get a chance go out in the garage or outside and shoot 3 primers. They should come out with only a black nose and fall out of the bolt. This is a good preliminary test. I think you will find that you get a primer crush on all primers but some primers are going to be more difficult than others to close down on.

When all is said and done it is really nice to have a clean breech area after shooting.

You might take a look at this bullet also - if you have any interest in shooting a full bore bullet.

It is a Lehigh Defense .458x260CF and shoots very well from my Super DISC's

 

[jsteurrys]

Shooting off a few Primers as sabotloader suggested will give you a decent idea if the issue has been resolved not. I always do that after making an adjustment.

 

[brownisdown]

S abot loader,are those bullets for a 45 or a 50 cal?

 

[birdog]

I did as you guy's suggested and shot 3 primers and all 3 primers came out clean around the side. Before shimming my primers were very dirty so I know I have made a big improvement with the headspace.

I will know for sure tomorrow after running some full loads but I expect no difference with the primers. Thanks to you guys I'm feeling pretty good about this old Knight Disc.

Sabotloader I am hoping to get a few of those Lehigh's on the way to test. I was told they are out of stock at this time. I'm shooting full bore now with the Parker 275 BE and they are shooting very well, even with the poor headspace.