209 primers in smokeless muzzleloader?

[someguy2800]

Hey guys, just joined the forum because I am doing some research into building a smokeless muzzleloader. I am an experienced machinist and handloader and will probably be converting a 45-70 CVA scout by boring and threading it for a breach plug. I've seen a few people mention that they are using 209 primers with their conversions. For you guys that have them, is your setup using a flame channel and flash hole in the breech plug, or direct ignition? How much pressure will a 209 primer handle? I am also thinking about making a breech plug to take a cut down piece of 327 federal brass and modify the existing extractor to pull it out. Any ideas or pictures would be appreciated.

 

[someguy2800]

I should add that I’m not interested in going nuts on the power factor. Ideal power for me would be like a 250 grain at 2000 fps. I haven’t played around in quickload yet to figure out how much pressure that will take, but probably 30k if I go with 4198?

 

[ENCORE50A]

....................I am also thinking about making a breech plug to take a cut down piece of 327 federal brass and modify the existing extractor to pull it out. Any ideas or pictures would be appreciated.

Using brass cases can cause you more trouble than it may be worth. Head spacing can be very inconsistent, causing leaks and gas cut breech plugs.
Take notice of the UF and RUM rifles.........

The case head thickness changes, therefore the head space goes bad. For the Remington Ultimate, the case head thickness can vary as much as .020" and there's no possible way to have proper head space with that system. Even Starline brass varies in head thickness of .005".

The best fix IMO, is the Arrowhead modular system for SML. You can, with a TON OF WORK make brass cases work, but its WAY to much work.

 

[ElDiablo]

You’d probably have a tough time getting a 250 gr bullet to go that slow! Lol

56 gr of IMR4198 and a 250 xtp is 2400 fps at 31.8k



As for the ignition system, I’d bet a 209 would handle more pressure than your barrel on a scout. I like 209 plugs (yes, flame channel and bushing). No reason to use modules IMO.

 

[MrTom]

I shoot a 225 grain .40 cal with a 56 grain charge IMR4198 with 209 primers and I see zero primer issues. I'm sure I am up in the 2250 to maybe 2400 fps range.

 

[someguy2800]

You’d probably have a tough time getting a 250 gr bullet to go that slow! Lol

56 gr of IMR4198 and a 250 xtp is 2400 fps at 31.8k

View attachment 38984

As for the ignition system, I’d bet a 209 would handle more pressure than your barrel on a scout. I like 209 plugs (yes, flame channel and bushing). No reason to use modules IMO.

I was just playing with some numbers in quickload. At a slightly compressed 104% loading density it looks like I would only need about 42 grains of IMR4198 and 27000 psi to get to 2000 fps from a 22" barrel. I'm guessing the actual powder charge would need to be a little higher as there will be some gas leakage past the bullet until it obturates.

The question in my mind is would 27,000 psi be enough to obturate a .452 jacketed bullet into the grooves of a .458 barrel or would I be better off using a .400" bullet and a sabot at this low pressure? If I go the sabot route that has me thinking of just making a 50 caliber barrel from scratch for an H&R frame.

 

[someguy2800]

I shoot a 225 grain .40 cal with a 56 grain charge IMR4198 with 209 primers and I see zero primer issues. I'm sure I am up in the 2250 to maybe 2400 fps range.

Thanks for the input. Are you using a sabot in a 45 barrel?

 

[someguy2800]

I shoot a 225 grain .40 cal with a 56 grain charge IMR4198 with 209 primers and I see zero primer issues. I'm sure I am up in the 2250 to maybe 2400 fps range.

Also if you wouldn't mind, do you have a close up picture of the back of your breech plug? I'm curious how the primer is supported.

 

[MrTom]

Thanks for the input. Are you using a sabot in a 45 barrel?

Yup. Light blue regular Harvester.

And I'll just add knowing it has zip to do with primers, but I knurl all of my bullets used in all of my in-lines including smokeless.

I'll get a picture in a minute.

 

[ElDiablo]

Also if you wouldn't mind, do you have a close up picture of the back of your breech plug? I'm curious how the primer is supported.

Here’s a 209 in Woodmans adjustable plug

 

[MrTom]

Thanks ED. My plug looks very much like this someguy.

 

[someguy2800]

Here’s a 209 in Woodmans adjustable plug

View attachment 38985

It looks like there is about a .020” gap between the primer rim and the breach plug?

This is a breech plug I made for an H&R 58 cal huntsman to convert it to 209 primers instead of musket caps. I made a chamfered protrusion a little smaller than the primer rim so the primer is fully supported but can still get ahold of it. About half of the time I can put it out with my finger nails and the other half I have to pop it out with my leatherman.



So if I want to keep it as simple as possible I could do the same thing with a threaded breech plug for the smokeless conversion, or I could try to get elaborate and make the ejector work on either the 209 primers or a shortened piece of brass.

I hadn’t even thought of using sabots with smokeless till today. Reading the results some are getting with sabots in smokeless makes me lean towards doing a 50 cal barrel on an H&R frame or maybe getting a 44 CVA barrel rebored to 50 cal. Seams that would be easier to load and not have to worry about sizing bullets for the modest velocities I’m looking for

 

[smokeeter]

Ive been shooting my CVA 45/70 conversion today and i love almost everything about it, except removing the extractor to remove the breech plug. Or if shooting with out the extractor in, having to dig out the modules. A 209 plug in this would be a much better plug, imho.
Being able to adjust headspace on the Woodman and just use 209s sounds like a better hunting setup. But I am loving the 45/70 with 200XTPs and imr4198.

I just finished a CVA Scout conversion with criteria you mention. I went with a 209 ignition for convenience although somewhat out of vogue , went with an ASG 209 pug modified with a insert for adjustable headspacing, I made an extractor to work with the 209 primer. I didn't install the roll pin and spring with the extractor for ease of breech plug removal and it stays in place as long as the gun is assembled.
I'm sure a Woodman adjustable plug could be fitted with these conversions as mentioned with the appropriate thread size for the plug.

 

[someguy2800]

I just finished a CVA Scout conversion with criteria you mention. I went with a 209 ignition for convenience although somewhat out of vogue , went with an ASG 209 pug modified with a insert for adjustable headspacing, I made an extractor to work with the 209 primer. I didn't install the roll pin and spring with the extractor for ease of breech plug removal and it stays in place as long as the gun is assembled.
I'm sure a Woodman adjustable plug could be fitted with these conversions as mentioned with the appropriate thread size for the plug.

That's pretty much exactly what I had in mind. Is there anything on these plugs providing a gas seal? I would think one would need a tapered interference at the front of the plug or a copper washer under the shoulder to keep gas from coming back through the threads, or am I overthinking the whole thing?

 

[Mnt monkey]

If I was committed to the lower velocities that you mentioned I probably would consider a 50 cal build to download 4198 as you mentioned to that light a load I'm afraid you might have some bullet swelling issues not being efficient enough I don't currently have a scout 45-70 conversion but I shoot a lot of other bolt action smokeless day in and day out as well as some omega smokeless rifles I shoot both the modules Arrowhead and Hankins systems as well as 209 adjustable plugs such as Woodman if I have my choice it would be modules hands down for me personally I consider 209 plugs to be okay for hunting if that's all you're building the rifle for if you're a shooter and you shoot a lot a lot of target practice and you try an Arrowhead or Hankins module system I think you would be in the module Camp even for hunting of course too also if you're a velocity checker you will find your extreme spread numbers Etc to be much better with the primer in a large rifle Magnum primer then you will with the 209 I don't want to beat the 209s up much I think they're very practical and I still will keep shooting them but if I have to pick which one is best to me it's hands down the brass modules and the arrowhead or Hankins type plugs any new build I might put together now if I have my choice but absolutely be that but again the 209s are sufficient. Looks like to me you have the ability and knowledge to build both Maybe you need three or four rifles hard to build just one once you head down this road,, love to see people building stuff themselves good luck

 

[mwwoodman]

Hey guys, just joined the forum because I am doing some research into building a smokeless muzzleloader. I am an experienced machinist and handloader and will probably be converting a 45-70 CVA scout by boring and threading it for a breach plug. I've seen a few people mention that they are using 209 primers with their conversions. For you guys that have them, is your setup using a flame channel and flash hole in the breech plug, or direct ignition? How much pressure will a 209 primer handle? I am also thinking about making a breech plug to take a cut down piece of 327 federal brass and modify the existing extractor to pull it out. Any ideas or pictures would be appreciated.

The pressure your 209 primer is exposed to is purely based on the design of the breech plug. The adjustable plug that we make has different configurations to regulate that pressure. I use this plug with 209's in .40 cal smokeless rifles. Pressures can be higher as your caliber goes down.
Shooting full bore 250s with 40 grains of smokeless will probably be tumbling bullets. You'd want sabots for that light of a load for sure.
If you go 209, I'd make something where you can adjust headspace, the lengths of the primers vary.
Modules are much better, tolerance reasons is one. I hold the lengths of modules around +/- .0003" for maintaining perfect headspace.

 

[someguy2800]

The pressure your 209 primer is exposed to is purely based on the design of the breech plug. The adjustable plug that we make has different configurations to regulate that pressure. I use this plug with 209's in .40 cal smokeless rifles. Pressures can be higher as your caliber goes down.
Shooting full bore 250s with 40 grains of smokeless will probably be tumbling bullets. You'd want sabots for that light of a load for sure.
If you go 209, I'd make something where you can adjust headspace, the lengths of the primers vary.
Modules are much better, tolerance reasons is one. I hold the lengths of modules around +/- .0003" for maintaining perfect headspace.

Yeah playing with quickload if I want to get the pressure up to like 40k to obturate the bullet while keeping the velocity down I would have to use something faster like Aliant 2400. I think for the power factor I want it sounds like a 50 cal with sabot's will make my life easier. Does the rim thickness on 209's also vary alot? The huntsman breech plug I made headspaces off the rim, not the head.

 

[alternate]

My tree stand gun is a .458 stub job on an NEF 12 gauge conversion to SML. I used the Arrow Sports rear sealing 209 BP with carbide insert. Three seasons now and many rounds down range with zero sealing problems. Use a 1x18 twist or faster for sabots. You can get away with a slower twist with full bore bullets as they are shorter per weight. I use 200gr XTP's in a Harvester blue sabot pushed by 58.5 gr RL7. They chrono at 2400fps. I actually wanted 2000 fps but the bullets wouldn't stabilize slower than 2400. The flash channel in the 209 BP acts as buffer and protects my Federal 209A primers from excessive pressure. Keep the channel clean and you can use any reasonable load without sticky primers. I eliminated the extractor entirely and made a little pry tool that I keep attached to my ball starter. The primers pop right out. Headspace your BP for a .003" to .005" crush fit with the primer brand you're gonna use. I never tried a BP that adjusts for head space so I'm just real careful with the machining. Good luck on your project.

 

[ElDiablo]

@someguy2800, there has been a great deal of pressure testing done and posted over on Doug’s. Have you looked through it?

https://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/thread/14868/tginpa-pressure-trace-loads-hyperlinked

 

[someguy2800]

@someguy2800, there has been a great deal of pressure testing done and posted over on Doug’s. Have you looked through it?

https://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/thread/14868/tginpa-pressure-trace-loads-hyperlinked

I haven’t, I take a look at those, thanks