777 issues

[UPtrapper]

I have an optima pistol and rifle, and a wolf rifle. I recently switched from my beloved bh209 to the dredded 777 Because of the price. I shoot a fair amount and I just don't want to pay the premium for bh209. I've shot pyrodex in the past and wasn't happy with it, dirty and stinky. I'm going to try some pyrodex p and select and see how I like it.

First issue is the crud ring it's horrible, every single shot I have to wet scrub back and forth, then dry patch the barrel to be able to get another bullet down the barrels. I don't have any low power primers just win209's so maybe that's the issue, I'm going to try and get my hands on some of them. I alcohol scrub the barrel and plug before the first shot to get the oil out. I really got used to the barely any smoke with bh209, wind was blowing in my face I had to hold my breath every time I shot until the smoke cleared.

Second issue with bh209 most everything I tried shot well, with 777 I shot from 60 to 86 grains weighed and only 80gr was even acceptable in the optima rifle, about 1.5" at 100 yards. Most other groups were 2" to 3" lots of fliers too opening some groups up to 5 or 6". The wolf and the optima pistol groups weren't any good at all. Ive never really shot the wolf for accuracy it just gets what ever my optima likes so maybe thats as good as it will shoot. The optima pistol seems to like heavier loads of bh209, so I started on the heavy side with 777, im going to try some lighter loads, maybe thats the trick. Any pointers here? I shot the factory plugs in all 3 guns the wolf and pistol plugs are new, and the optima plug was only shot with bh209 one day. Should I try my bh209 plugs or my ssk plugs? With bh209 my guns shot better on a dirty barrel, this isn't possible for me with 777 could that be the problem? I didn't try a variety of bullets, .45 300gr xtp in rifles and a .44 240gr xtp in the pistol, so I know I need to experiment more in that respect. Do I just have to accept the fact that 777 isn't going to shoot as well for me?

I do love how easy 777 is to clean once the crud ring is gone, although I dislike having to use water based cleaner. Primers are clean, just like bh209 but with 777 no stuck ones, they fall right out of the plug when I open the action.

It was my first day at the range with 777 and I'm not giving up on it yet, but a whole day at the range just left me very frustrated with 777. Really hoping bh209 price comes down, and I can switch back soon.

 

[MeatMachine]

Try federal borlock bullets. They cut through the triple seven crud ring with just a little more pressure on the ramrod without swabbing. They shot well with 110 gr in more than one rifle for me.

 

[Blacksheep]

I was where you are two years ago. What I’ve found is the 777 max life is about 2.5 years and I’ve found or at least it appears to me the last 10-15 shots can be plagued by fliers as fines or broken pieces can affect velocity. Ironically my Wolf is one of two rifles that shoot this stuff well. It has the 209 plug attached and I use the 777 Winchester primers . I’ve also noticed that if you seat with the same pressure you would 209 you can get erratic results as well . Hope this gives you some ideas.

 

[txhunter58]

Try federal borlock bullets. They cut through the triple seven crud ring with just a little more pressure on the ramrod without swabbing. They shot well with 110 gr in more than one rifle for me.

He needs to know you are shooting VOLUME, not weight.

 

[txhunter58]

Basspro appears to have 777 primers in stock. I would Suggest grabbing a few

There will be a slight crud ring even with them. You will always need to do very small strokes when you get close to breech. Once you get used to it, it doesn’t seem so bad.

 

[MeatMachine]

He needs to know you are shooting VOLUME, not weight.

I’m sure he did already.

 

[eekjellander]

I have an optima pistol and rifle, and a wolf rifle. I recently switched from my beloved bh209 to the dredded 777 Because of the price. I shoot a fair amount and I just don't want to pay the premium for bh209. I've shot pyrodex in the past and wasn't happy with it, dirty and stinky. I'm going to try some pyrodex p and select and see how I like it.

First issue is the crud ring it's horrible, every single shot I have to wet scrub back and forth, then dry patch the barrel to be able to get another bullet down the barrels. I don't have any low power primers just win209's so maybe that's the issue, I'm going to try and get my hands on some of them. I alcohol scrub the barrel and plug before the first shot to get the oil out. I really got used to the barely any smoke with bh209, wind was blowing in my face I had to hold my breath every time I shot until the smoke cleared.

Second issue with bh209 most everything I tried shot well, with 777 I shot from 60 to 86 grains weighed and only 80gr was even acceptable in the optima rifle, about 1.5" at 100 yards. Most other groups were 2" to 3" lots of fliers too opening some groups up to 5 or 6". The wolf and the optima pistol groups weren't any good at all. Ive never really shot the wolf for accuracy it just gets what ever my optima likes so maybe thats as good as it will shoot. The optima pistol seems to like heavier loads of bh209, so I started on the heavy side with 777, im going to try some lighter loads, maybe thats the trick. Any pointers here? I shot the factory plugs in all 3 guns the wolf and pistol plugs are new, and the optima plug was only shot with bh209 one day. Should I try my bh209 plugs or my ssk plugs? With bh209 my guns shot better on a dirty barrel, this isn't possible for me with 777 could that be the problem? I didn't try a variety of bullets, .45 300gr xtp in rifles and a .44 240gr xtp in the pistol, so I know I need to experiment more in that respect. Do I just have to accept the fact that 777 isn't going to shoot as well for me?

I do love how easy 777 is to clean once the crud ring is gone, although I dislike having to use water based cleaner. Primers are clean, just like bh209 but with 777 no stuck ones, they fall right out of the plug when I open the action.

It was my first day at the range with 777 and I'm not giving up on it yet, but a whole day at the range just left me very frustrated with 777. Really hoping bh209 price comes down, and I can switch back soon.

Any granulated powder requires a BH 209 plug !/Ed

 

[MrTom]

Any granulated powder requires a BH 209 plug !/Ed

Not really. I can shoot T7 granular ff and fff just fine with a factory, non 209 plug out of all my in-lines and at any time of the year. Just need to use a primer designed for reloading, not the chinsy muzzleloader primers.

 

[deermanok]

According to CVA, their standard QRBP is designed for use with granular and pelletized powders.

 

[txhunter58]

I shoot fffg 777 exclusively in my T/C renegade (sidelock) with a # 11 cap. No issues. Does not require a 209

 

[txhunter58]

I’m sure he did already.

He may, but there are a lot of newbies reading that may not. The difference is getting cloudy. Recently someone admitted he was using 110 gr WEIGHED because he didn’t know that most people still measure by volume.

 

[eekjellander]

According to CVA, their standard QRBP is designed for use with granular and pelletized powders.

not according to Muzzle loaders .com who sold me the new CVA 2rifle or look up your pocket rifle owners manual
the pistol /carbine V2 says the same thing . Not the primer not firing but the accuracy using the wrong plug .I am not making this stuff up get on the phone and ask them ! Perhaps they make 2 different plugs just for the fun of it but I doubt it /Ed

 

[a cloud of smoke]

According to CVA, their standard QRBP is designed for use with granular and pelletized powders.

I just got a new cva accura, came with 2 QRBP plugs..one labeled blackhorn and the other blank, instructions state blackhorn plug for powders and the blank on for pellets...

 

[deermanok]

I'm only quoting what it says on the CVA site.

 

[a cloud of smoke]

I'm only quoting what it says on the CVA site.View attachment 30135

I just scanned this from a newly purchase accura cva...note the yellow highlighted area....could it be cva needs to clarify its websight..its possible..I dont doubt what you are seeing..being save is the most important..sorry about the sideways pic..

 

[deermanok]

This is very confusing now.
Check this out.

 

[eekjellander]

YUP confusing but since I bought both I'm using neither bought the one recommended SSK with the vent liner hope it works cause I do not see the accuracy /function on ones being sold !/Ed

 

[UPtrapper]

Thanks guys, I'm in the big city (Detroit) to catch a flight, on my way back up north Ill stop by cabelas to see if I can find some primers and bullets to try. I'll try the blackhorn plugs and see if that helps. Hopefully we will have some warm weather so I can get to the range.

 

[RobRed]

I have extensively tested both plugs with loose triple seven. Both have had 100% reliable ignition.

 

[Ka'imiloa]

Thoughts:
1) In today's ML world, and as said above, we must always state our powder loads as either grains by volume or grains by weight.
2) When so much time and aggravation can be saved by having the proper tool, what does the mechanic do, he buys the expensive tool because "time is money". That is no different than spending frustrating and largely non-productive time at the range due to not wanting to buy a key ingredient that is expensive. There's a old British saying that fits: "penny wise and pound foolish". Been there, done that, myself!
3) As I've said on another thread or two, the tiny orifice in the long (standard) or hollowed-out (Blackhorn 209) breechplugs is all-important to prevent misfires, hangfires, and erratic shooting. It is extremely pesky since being prone to clogging, but the manufacturers wouldn't be making them that way if it weren't best (when clean) for ignition and therefore the best and most consistent powder burn. No amount of barrel cleaning is going to clean out that orifice, and as crud goes up, firing consistency goes down until you get flyers and possibly even bullets striking the target crossways. So soak and clean your breechplug before range time or hunt, and be sure the proper tiny machinist's drill or standard steel-pin size will pass thru the orifice. That will be about .032" D. for T/C or CVA. But use great care by hand, very slowly, with those tiny drills. Usually, 1/8"common drill, again hand-held, cleans out the larger diameter portion of the breechplug.
4) If you are used to using granular BH 209 and putting pressure on your bullet to be sure it is well down on the powder, you can easily fracture the base when switching to your Pyrodex or Triple7 pellet, and get poor ignition. One reason is the small pellet of black powder in the base of pellets to allow good ignition. If you use a breech plug with flat front, all the more surface to even out the bullet's loading pressure on the pellet and its base. The BH 209 hollowed-front breech plug is made for granular powder, plus it gets that powder considerably closer to the primer flash, but it can fracture the pellets unless gentle loading pressure is used. And so we see above that CVA is putting that in writing by saying their BH 209 breechplug is for granular powders and the flat-ended one is for pellets.
5) Pyrodex P is the equivalent of 3F black powder, a smaller grain size. So it ignites easier and also gives more oomph per volume. Hence "P" stands for Pistol. You're going to get easier ignition with P but also more pressure. Pressure enhances blowback, and loading Pyrodex P in the same volumes as Pyrodex or Prodex Select, if high, like many an inline shooter does, is perhaps not appropriate. (BTW, I could never find any value to using Select vs regular Pyrodex, seemed to just be a sales ploy to me.)
6) Many know this, some don't: The so-called "weak" or useless 209 primers made for MLs are made that way for a precise reason, to be able to ignite substitute powders like Pyrodex and Triple7 while reducing the amount of crud in the bore and breechplug and breech zone. When you use regular 209s with Pyrodex or Triple 7, you get more crud due to increased primer crud. Your breech's tiny orifice is going to constrict faster due to fouling buildup, and your accuracy will therefore go out the window faster. It's even worse if you are using 209 M (magnum) primers with Pyrodex or Triple7. Those magnum primers are better for igniting BH209 of course, and consistent ignition is essential with that to achieve a low-residue burn and the excellent accuracy. The increased primer crud is greatly overshadowed by the much decreased crud from proper ignition of BH209.
7) Accuracy going to pot or being non-existent can also be due to an undersized bullet that did not expand well at ignition, or to a skirt that fails as powder charge (and pressure) go up. Some older green-skirt .50 Powerbelts, at least, blew their skirts right off for me with a moderate charge (77 gr. wt.) of BH 209. Accuracy was terrible. Perhaps the aged plastic was the culprit, yet we don't know how old anything we load actually is. Shoot over some bare ground and go pick up your sabots (or blown off skirts) and examine them. If accuracy is good, don't be concerned if sabot petals are sticking straight out to the side, but check the base cup.
8) Any time someone reports success better than most, flintlock caplock or inline, you need to hear their whole loading process. Those little details are where the success comes from, and so often that takes a lot of time to write down, hence it is missing in many an article and especially at forums. I happen to be able to type pretty well and am retired -- hence these long-winded posts. Apologies.
Aloha, Ka'imiloa