A new twist on a traditional style rifle

[cayuga]

I have a couple of Thompson Center Renegades. I also have a number of different Green Mountain Barrels that drop into the Renegade stock. One of the barrels is a Stainless Steel 1/28 twist 28" barrel.

I was told about a new sabot out there. Some of us have seen them used in the 200 grain Shockwaves. They are a blue sabot made by MMP. So I purchased a couple bags of them through MMP and then ordered some 10mm or .40 caliber .400 diameter XTP's that weigh 200 grains. I was told that they shoot excellent out of fast twist barrels. One person who has the identical kind of rifle and barrel said he had shot the XTP's with 110 grains of Triple Se7en 2f.

So today I took the rifle out and the new sabot/projectile combination. I loaded 100 grains of Triple Se7en 2f and from the 50 yard line off a single Caldwell shot bag bench rest took my first shot.

I was using CCI caps. Unfortunately these were not the magnum kind. I have a brother living in the big cities purchase CCI Magnum #11 caps for me and of course he got the wrong ones. So I have 1000 of the standard caps to shoot off. I actually got a slight hang fire with the first shot.

Without swabbing I loaded a second 100 grains charge and fired a second and third. Again, a slight hang fire could be detected. On the 4th shot, a definite hang fire occurred because I was about to bring the rifle off the bag to re-cap.

I then swabbed the barrel clean and went into the house and got some RWS 1075 #11 caps. I upped the powder charge to 110 grains of Triple Se7en 2f and shot another three shot group. With the RWS caps there was no hang fire.

While this might not be considered a "traditional" load, it sure would be a good hunting load. Very accurate, and with the powder charge and projectile combination it would be hard hitting.

 

[n8dawg6]

cayuga, good shootin 8) . definitely great ballistics from a .40 caliber 200 grain bullet. thats whut i shoot out of the .45 caliber disc elite. not sure whut the aversion is to .45's . . . it may be that they are less accurate than .50's on the whole (although this is not the case with my disc). however, from a ballistics standpoint, if you are hunting whitetail deer, the .40 caliber bullet has .44 and .45 caliber bullets beat :!:

 

[cayuga]

On a different forum discussing this topic, I read of the "effective speed range" this bullet is made to operate best at. I read concern from some that with the hollow point and the high speeds they are being pushed at, this might not make the best bullet to use.

Since these poster are very respected, I have to take some concern with their comments. Would this high speed hollow point hit and splatter? Would the penetration be enough to get the job done?

I was wondering what experience you have in actual knock downs with that XTP in the 10mm? While I understand that a handgun projectile is not intended to move at these high speeds (I guess the speed at or over 2000 fps), I guess the concern is how well it holds together on deer type animals because of the speed.

 

[n8dawg6]

thats a good question . . . but to be honest, i would expect hornady to construct the .429 and .451 xtp's similarly, since, as handgun boolets, they will operate at velocities similar to the 200 grain 10mm boolet. not sure, though.

when i said ballistics, i was thinking mainly of the ballistic coefficient of the boolet and the fact that it will start out at a higher velocity with a similar powder charge. of course, i have some .40 cal 200 g. hornady sst's that are definitely designed for deer hunting. i still have to think that those would have a better ballistic coefficient than a .45 cal 250 g. sst. am i correct in thinking so? :?:

 

[tooldog]

I would worry a bit about the .40 cal (10mm) 200 gr at high velocities. Hornday lists that particular bullet's performance as designed for 700 to 1200 fps. That's not near the larger XTPs range.

.44cal 240gr XTP = 900 - 1750fps
.44cal 300gr XTP = 850 - 1900 fps
.45cal 250gr XTP = 800 - 1600 fps
.45cal 300gr XTP = 800 - 1700 fps
.45cal 240gr XTP MAG = 1100 - 2100 fps
.45cal 3000gr XTP MAG = 1100 - 2100 fps

Although I don't know if that means the .40 (10mm) 200 gr it will break up at impact at those higher speeds or won't open at all.

tooldog

 

[Mountain Man]

1. No, the 200 .40 SST does not have a particularly better BC than the 250 .452 SST. If you calculate SD, you'll see they have a nearly identical mass/frontal area ratio.

2. Based on Hornady's velocity ranges, I would not expect the 10 mm bullet to do that well at yoru velocities. Seems like there would be a high likelihood of fragmentation.

3. Have you tried 200 grain .40 SSTs in those same sabots? You'd have the same velocities, a better trajectory, and less likelihood of bullet failure/fragmentation.

 

[cayuga]

I've shot the 200 grain SST's as well and they seem to work excellent. That was one reason that I wanted to experiment with the 200 grain XTP's. I did not realize they had to move so slow to be effective. I will have to get a bucket of sand and do some shooting tests into it. While that is not a true test by any means, it will show me how badly the bullet will fragment. I will even put a chunk of deer hide over the top of the bucket just to be fair. I tan a lot of hides (brain tan & curatan solution) with the hair on and use them as rugs. So they should somewhat work with the test...

 

[smokit]

I see no problem with 200 xtp's at higher speeds(2650 fps).I killed 2 does last year with them.Both were pass throughs and both dropped in their tracks.Well maybe not exactly,because they were knocked out of their tracks a few feet. :twisted:

 

[n8dawg6]

cayuga, let us know the results, i'm curious . make sure you shoot some of the other sizes of xtp's into the target too, so we can compare. thats just great that yer going to do all of this testing for us

i find it hard to believe that 200 grains of lead would fragment at <2000 fps when it impacts thin-skinned game. however, i have absolutely no practical experience to back up that hunch, so i could be dead wrong.

mountain man, thanks for the info on the sst's. do you know how the sectional density of the .451 250 g. xtp compares to the .40 200 g. xtp?

 

[tooldog]

Looks like the bullet cayuga is using is sold by Hornday as a .45 cal sabot combination which make me think it is probably an okay combination.

Item# Type Diameter Weight BC SD
#40060 XTP/HP .400" 200 gr. 0.199 0.179 <<<
#44100 XTP/HP .430" 200 gr. 0.170 0.155
#44200 XTP/HP .430" 240 gr. 0.205 0.185
#44280 XTP .430" 300 gr. 0.245 0.232
#45220 XTP/HP/MAG .452" 240 gr. 0.160 0.168
#45200 XTP/HP .452" 250 gr. 0.146 0.175
#45235 XTP/HP/MAG .452" 300 gr. 0.200 0.210
#45230 XTP/HP .452" 300 gr. 0.180 0.210

Bullets with .45 cal sabot
#6713 XTP/HP .400" 200 gr. 0.199 0.179 <<<
#67132 SST .400" 200 gr. 0.265 0.179

tooldog

 

[IndianaHunter]

That's great shooting... I really enjoy shooting with open sights from time to time. I wish Indiana would open a weekend up during season for tradtional guns with open sights only...

 

[Mountain Man]

Are you not allowed to use a traditional gun with open sights in the middle of the season now, if you want to? Why does everybody else have to give up a week and/or be restricted on their choice of weapon in order for you to enjoy yours?

 

[cayuga]

Looks like the bullet cayuga is using is sold by Hornday as a .45 cal sabot combination which make me think it is probably an okay combination.

Item# Type Diameter Weight BC SD
#40060 XTP/HP .400" 200 gr. 0.199 0.179 <<<
#44100 XTP/HP .430" 200 gr. 0.170 0.155
#44200 XTP/HP .430" 240 gr. 0.205 0.185
#44280 XTP .430" 300 gr. 0.245 0.232
#45220 XTP/HP/MAG .452" 240 gr. 0.160 0.168
#45200 XTP/HP .452" 250 gr. 0.146 0.175
#45235 XTP/HP/MAG .452" 300 gr. 0.200 0.210
#45230 XTP/HP .452" 300 gr. 0.180 0.210

Bullets with .45 cal sabot
#6713 XTP/HP .400" 200 gr. 0.199 0.179 <<<
#67132 SST .400" 200 gr. 0.265 0.179

tooldog

Great information there!! Thanks. As for the bullet, I buy them seperate in a box of 100 to be used for reloading the 10mm or .40 caliber cartridge I believe. I then stick them in the blue MMP sabot and they shoot great. I will see what they do with a bucket of sand, and be sure to shoot some .429 -.430 & .451-.452 240 & 300 grain XTP's as well...

 

[IndianaHunter]

Are you not allowed to use a traditional gun with open sights in the middle of the season now, if you want to? Why does everybody else have to give up a week and/or be restricted on their choice of weapon in order for you to enjoy yours?

Wow, slow down there Mountain Man... Yes, I can use a traditional gun during general gun season but under those conditions, I would use my Savage 10-ML-II, SMI, or my Savage slug gun depending on location and condition. In addition, I said a weekend, not a week. I really do not see this as being any different from separate bow, gun, muzzleloader, and crossbow seasons. Specific seasons do bring hunters out that might not hit the woods during that time. If I could pick the date, it would be a weekend during bow season. I do bow hunt but not every weekend so this might get me in the woods two more days a year, as I would take advantage of that type of hunting.

 

[Mountain Man]

I wasn't trying to pick a fight or offend. Just wanted a friendly discussion about it.

Here in Tennessee, the Wildlife Agency actually admits that even with the 3-does-a-day limits in about one-third to one-half the state, they can't get people to shoot enough does. Given that state of affairs, I see no reason not to just convert our September to November bow season, and our two weeks of muzzleloader season, to all-weapons allowed. Those who want to bow hunt certainly can, but those who want to go out and pop a doe or two across a bean field can anytime they want, too. The vast majority of hunting is done on private property, so they have control over hunting pressure or types of weapons used, if they want to restrict it more than the state does. Secondly, I think you'd actually see a lot less of a sudden onslaught of orange-clad greenhorns in the woods, since their opportunities to hunt would be spread out over four months.

After all aren't we trying to get more people to hunt, not keep them out of the woods?

While I really want to get a flintlock, I just don't want to keep others from using their Knights or Savages, or Remingtons or Kimbers, for that matter, when they want to hunt. I personally would mind less if they added a new week or weekend for primitive, but I just don't see a need to take away a weekend from other hunters.

 

[Anonymous]

I'm in the same boat as Indianahunter,,ie same State, just a few miles apart. I think what spurred Pat's response as well as mine is,,use what you have/want/ own/ borrow, and or beg. Bottom line is who cares as long as it's legal and you can use it as morally and ethically as possible to harvest your game? Tune it up and practice with it. Scope it or not. It's your choice. We HAVE that choice in Indiana, traditional or not. I agree with IH,,if you want to have a "traditional only" muzzleloader season,,,put it in with the early bow season for 1 weekend.

I just get tired of so-called traditionalists trying to "spoon-feed" us. If I misunderstood your post MM,,,I appologise. No harm,,no foul. But I have hunted the Indiana muzzleloading season since it's conception.

 

[Mountain Man]

No offense here, and I definitely hope none given.

Batchief, I'm not sure whether we're saying the same thing or opposite. I'm saying, at least in my state, if we're going to tinker with weapons restrictions, lets broaden them (allow greater choices during any given day of the season), not narrow them.

But, I'm not in Indianna, so what y'all do doesn't have much to do with my hunting, anyway. :wink:

Cayuga, I like your idea and would love to hear how it performs on-game!

 

[Anonymous]

8)

 

[big6x6]

Some personal experience concerning the 200gr .40cal XTP:

We used that bullet a few years ago in a Knight Wolverine 209. MV about 1800fps. Shot one doe with that load and it really cleaned her plow! When the doe was dressed it looked as if she were hit with a 180gr Partition from a 30-06 with complete penetration and lots of damage. I calculated the BC for that bullet at .183 which is about the same as a .429 240gr XTP but not quite as good as a 200gr Shockwave/SST which is around .210 for me.

If it were me, I'd probably limit powder charge to 80-100gr of Triple Se7en. I'm sure it would do a FINE job on any whitetail as far as one can shoot with open sights!

IMO the beauty of those 200gr bullets is low recoil. Shoot some 285-300gr bullets with 100gr of Triple Se7en for a while and then load up some of the 200gr bullets...what a pleasant surprise! They are SO easy to shoot! I really don't know why they aren't used more often!

Good shooting Dave, BTW! Why don't you pop a whitetail with one this fall? :yeah:

 

[cayuga]

I fully intend to do just that if the opportunity comes up. Had a chipmunk stayed a little more still yesterday instead of racing across the target range we would have seen what they would have done on a thin skinned animal..

I also sent Hornady a e-mail posing a few questions reference the 200 grain XTP. I figure if anyone has done testing on them it should be the parent company. It will be interesting to see if they answer.