Copper Bullets in TC Renegade

[Frank in Fairfield]

I have a .54 Renegade. My friend ((caniborrowsomeammo) wants to hunt in a muzzleloader only area this fall in California. We have to use non-lead projectiles. I bought some Barnes bullets that come with a .54 caliber sabot. The bullets are exactly .500”. I cannot load the bullets with sabots in the Renegade. Too tight. I normally shoot .535 round balls with .015 patches.... .535 + .015 (.030 in total) = .560. My question is can I use the .500 bullets with .030 patches (jeans material) or two .015 patches? I just want to shoot the bullets. I have a .50 inline (I bought it when the .54 wouldn’t take the .54 sabots) for the hunting season..Thanks for your esponse.

 

[Caniborrowsomeammo]

Frank, what color are the sabots that came with the Barnes bullets? I think I saw them but can't remember.

 

[Henry Miles]

Go to MMP Sabots and get some sabots for tight fitting barrels

 

[GM54-120]

Go to MMP Sabots and get some sabots for tight fitting barrels

There is no such thing for a 54x50 sabot. There is a Harvester 50x45 sabot that might load easier than the MMP. In 54x50 you have 2 choices and MMP makes both of them. The red 54x50 is made just for Barnes. I dont think i ever compared the red and purple 54x50 sabots but they sure felt like they loaded the same to me.

You can contact Harvester and see if you can get a 54x45 sabot sample. Then try a Barnes 45LC 200gr or 225gr XPB. Maybe even the Lehigh 230gr. Other bullets are likely too long for the 1-48.
https://www.lehighdefense.com/451-controlled-fracturing-muzzleloader-230gr-bullet
https://www.harvestermuzzleloading.com/index.php/54-cal-hps

 

[GM54-120]

My question is can I use the .500 bullets with .030 patches (jeans material) or two .015 patches?

Not very likely. Shooting solid copper bullets sabotless can be done but not by using a cloth patch. First you need them just tight enough to load and stay on the powder. Knurling with a couple new high quality files will increase the OD slightly. Once you get them tight enough you want a good wad to seal them up on the powder. I would suggest a Poly Wad since they fit very tight. Personally i never had much luck shooting solid coppers sabotless even with very hot loads. You can anneal the bullets to soften them. Get them glowing red with a torch and drop them in water.

 

[Idaholewis]

Not very likely. Shooting solid copper bullets sabotless can be done but not by using a cloth patch. First you need them just tight enough to load and stay on the powder. Knurling with a couple new high quality files will increase the OD slightly. Once you get them tight enough you want a good wad to seal them up on the powder. I would suggest a Poly Wad since they fit very tight. Personally i never had much luck shooting solid coppers sabotless even with very hot loads. You can anneal the bullets to soften them. Get them glowing red with a torch and drop them in water.

I tried regular Rifle bullets 1 time in my .358 Bore, They were Heavy Jacketed, And just to hard to Obturate (Bump up) I would get 1 or 2 Shots that looked good on Target, then 1 or 2 Shots that Went through the Target Sideways, Hit my Target Frame Etc. In short, it was a Waste of Powder & Time. After this experience i never even gave Solid Copper a 2nd Thought.
From what little research that i did, To be reliable, They would Need to be Full form sized through a Piece of your Barrel “Barrel Drop” I had no interest to carry on with it

On the other hand, I had EXCELLENT luck with “Bore Riding” Pistol type Jacketed Bullets in my TC Renegades & Hawken’s, As they are MUCH Softer and “Bump Up“ (Obturate) Easily

 

[GM54-120]

I would get 1 or 2 Shots that looked good on Target, then 1 or 2 Shots that Went through the Target Sideways, Hit my Target Frame Etc.

Same results as me. A couple good ones then a keyhole. I got tired of wasting powder on them. The only solution ive heard of that works virtually every time is full formed. Too much of a hassle for me and you better have a really stout press to do it.

 

[Nick559]

I tried regular Rifle bullets 1 time in my .358 Bore, They were Heavy Jacketed, And just to hard to Obturate (Bump up) I would get 1 or 2 Shots that looked good on Target, then 1 or 2 Shots that Went through the Target Sideways, Hit my Target Frame Etc. In short, it was a Waste of Powder & Time. After this experience i never even gave Solid Copper a 2nd Thought.
From what little research that i did, To be reliable, They would Need to be Full form sized through a Piece of your Barrel “Barrel Drop” I had no interest to carry on with it

On the other hand, I had EXCELLENT luck with “Bore Riding” Pistol type Jacketed Bullets in my TC Renegades & Hawken’s, As they are MUCH Softer and “Bump Up“ (Obturate) Easily

Try the new 350 Legend bullets with .356 diameter. I've had very good luck with them.

 

[GM54-120]

Try the new 350 Legend bullets with .356 diameter. I've had very good luck with them.

Ive been tempted to try those in some 45x357 sabots. In fast twist 45s

 

[Nick559]

I've been trying them out with 110 grains of Blackhorn 209. My ignition system is the 25 ACP conversion for small rifle magnum primers that you can get from Cecil Epps at Precision Rifle in Canada. I think I can go hotter than 110 because the bullet through weighs 160 grains. I've been using his 190 grain 357 bullet that looks like a lead ballistic tip. Absolutely zero blow back into the action because it seals so tight. I've actually shot them at target at 300 yards and 400 yards at my local range (eight inch gong only at those distances).

For deer, this is an absolutely devastating combination out to 300 yards. This new bullet will be a lot easier to load since it's .336 in diameter. You don't have to hammer it down the barrel like you do with a 358 bullets. I'd like a little more bullet weight for a bigger animals however this bullet will shoot extremely flat and is fine for deer and similar animals. It takes the 45 caliber Encore, Omega and others to a hole new level about on par with the very expensive custom 45 long range guns.

 

[Elgatodeacero]

If the Barnes sabots that came with your Barnes copper bullets are too tight (a known issue as the TC rifles have tighter bores than other brands) contact Barnes and tell them your situation. I did this and they were very kind and sent me a package of slightly smaller sabots that fit my bore, and for free!

I am still getting terrible accuracy, but at least I can load the copper bullets and sabots.

 

[Nick559]

Call or look at the website for MMP Sabots. They will have what you need. The Omegs's do have tight bores.

 

[sdporter]

Good old California! Be careful what you buy and use, it causes cancer there. . Utah actually gives you a voucher if you draw a tag for a certain unit, for a box of non-lead ammo to protect the beautiful California Condor.
Can you double sabot something and make it fit better? Say a .50/.45 in a .54/50 sabot?

 

[Nick559]

Good old California! Be careful what you buy and use, it causes cancer there. . Utah actually gives you a voucher if you draw a tag for a certain unit, for a box of non-lead ammo to protect the beautiful California Condor.
Can you double sabot something and make it fit better? Say a .50/.45 in a .54/50 sabot?

Yes you can do that. Precision Rifle in Canada, owner Cecil Epps has the sabots and sells them. Be sure it's legal to use them where you hunt.

 

[bandicoot]

Good old California! Be careful what you buy and use, it causes cancer there. . Utah actually gives you a voucher if you draw a tag for a certain unit, for a box of non-lead ammo to protect the beautiful California Condor.
Can you double sabot something and make it fit better? Say a .50/.45 in a .54/50 sabot?

It not the products. It's Cal's toxic enviornment.

 

[Bushfire]

I haven't read all the posts but I know of guys shooting bismuth round balls in CA.

 

[sdporter]

I believe their reasoning behind the non-lead is that a wounded animal runs off and dies and is not recovered, the beautiful California Condor finds it, eats it and the lead projectile and then develops lead poisoning and dies.
I’d love to see one survive eating an all copper projectile and live. Their innards would be torn asunder from the sharp petals.
That’s politician logic for you.

 

[Frank in Fairfield]

Thanks fellas

 

[Bad Karma]

I believe their reasoning behind the non-lead is that a wounded animal runs off and dies and is not recovered, the beautiful California Condor finds it, eats it and the lead projectile and then develops lead poisoning and dies.
I’d love to see one survive eating an all copper projectile and live. Their innards would be torn asunder from the sharp petals.
That’s politician logic for you.

Look here now! The end result or lack there of can not be called into question! It’s the intent that matters. Therefore, if the intent is to save the noble Condor, and as a side benefit reduce participation in shooting sports, that’s all that matters!

 

[LHR]

Actually I thought Utah gave you a box of ammo to take out condors that stray into Utah? Maybe I got that wrong