First Date with Smokeless

[LarryBud]

I recently purchased a Savage ML II. I Hit the range today with some book loads of SR 4759

75 Yards. 42 Grains, 300 SST



Not Bad for starters. M Scope adjust and moved to 100yards.



So, its throwing 2" groups at 100 yards. Obviously, room for improvement but not a bad start. Interesting how the POI changes from the SSTs to the XTPs. everything the same but the bullet.

I accomplished my #1 goal. I didn\dn't blow anything up. Whew.

 

[1874sharpsshooter]

Looks like you are off to a good start . Wont be long and you will be out to 300 yards and beyond.

 

[GM54-120]

4759 is an excellent all around powder for average speeds and very reasonable pressures. I would try the MMP Short Black or maybe the MMP HPH-12 sabots.

Try NOT cleaning the bore until after a few range sessions. The Savage often likes to be shot dirty. Just run a dry patch if the fouling seems excessive.

If you ever see any N120, jump on it. It will deliver some of the best performance with 300gr bullets and fouling it almost no existent. The same goes for N110 and 250gr bullets. Its ok for a 300gr also but it can blow sabots a bit easier than N120. N110 builds pressure fast and peaks higher. You have never seen CLEAN shooting until you've shot Vihtavuori powders.

Once you get hooked, you will be getting a 45cal aftermarket barrel anyway. :lol:

 

[LarryBud]

Try NOT cleaning the bore until after a few range sessions. The Savage often likes to be shot dirty. Just run a dry patch if the fouling seems excessive.
:

Do you just pull the breech plug and clean it? I cleaned this one down to the bone just like BP.

 

[LarryBud]

I will say this load got my attentionon the recoil side. It seems a litlle sharper or quicker than BP and the subs.

 

[GM54-120]

Try NOT cleaning the bore until after a few range sessions. The Savage often likes to be shot dirty. Just run a dry patch if the fouling seems excessive.
:

Do you just pull the breech plug and clean it? I cleaned this one down to the bone just like BP.

If you started with a new vent liner and clean breach plug, just verify the flash channel isnt too restricted and the flash hole hasnt eroded past .035 after each range session. No need to clean it every time unless you have very lengthy range sessions. Inspecting the breach plug has one other good side effect, it makes sure the vent liner and plug threads wont become seized. It can happen to the vent liner and they are a PITA to remove if seized. Savage plugs are not made of SS but there aftermarket SS plugs available.

Ive left my bores fouled for a couple months with no ill effects. This partially depends on climate but usually just a dry patch is enough to remove any excessive fouling. Results will vary some based on the powder used. SR4759 and Reloder7 for example are fairly dirty but not terrible. 5744 is VERY dirty IMO. 4198 is a bit cleaner than the above listed powders and N120/N110 are exceptionally clean powders.

 

[GM54-120]

I will say this load got my attentionon the recoil side. It seems a litlle sharper or quicker than BP and the subs.

SR4759 is a fairly fast burning powder but its quite bulky. My WAG is you were in the 2150fps range with 43gr of 4759. IIRC a 250gr bullet is getting about 2250fps with the same amount of powder. Your load is plenty safe in the Savage.

There should be several pressure traces on Dougs for the old tin can 4759 and the newer plastic bottle 4759.

 

[BuckDoeHunter]

Congrats on the smokeless muzzleloader! artyman:

That's funny, I had the same goal the first time I shot my McRem

 

[GM54-120]

There is nearly always that "pucker factor" the first few times you shoot a SML. After years of being told SMLs are sooooo dangerous, its hard to get over quickly.

A witness mark can save you a ton of aggravation and never let someone at the range distract you.

 

[wolfer]

that 43 gr load is kinda on the hot end for 4759 for my taste, some people shoot more but it can be punishing on the recoil end. Originally when the Ball guys were developing the Savage they shot 35 to 40 gr. of 4759 and that was plenty. Personally I have 2 MLIIs in 50 cal. and get good accuracy after a bit of tweaking. They are pretty much factory but I polished (JB) the bores and bedded the actions and floated the barrel. I use a folding loading rod in the field, no ramrod on a hanger for me, and a range rod at the range and for cleaning. I have found that .458 bullets in 300 or 325 grains weight in the orange or black crush rib sabot shoot best. Of the many 300 bullets available the accuracy seems pretty much interchangeable but the Barnes original and Speer give superior terminal performance. The Hornady 300 with it's deep hollowpoint has been somewhat fragile for my taste on terminal game performance but I'm pushing it at 21-22C and at close range it will frag. One of my barrels is SS and the other is CM-blue. the blue barrel likes the orange sabot with the 300 grain .458 bullets and the SS likes the BCR with the .458s. I have been shooting 4759 but it is hard/impossible find as no longer made. this season will be moving on to H or IMR4198 and have found source of Alliant Reloder 7. If you shoot faster powders like the 4759 and/or hot slower powder your vent can erode faster so get some hard ones and keep check on the size. Personally I like the Lehigh vent liners as they seem to be harder and will last a couple of seasons, 200+-shots, for me. You didn't say if your stock is lam or "Tupperware" but bedding and taking the flex out of the stock will help. I bed a section of graphite fishing rod in the ramrod channel on my guns to stiffen the forearm when I do the bedding job and it takes the flex out.

SO I will say to:
1. polish the bore
2. do a bedding job, hillbill has good process over on Dougs.
3. try .458 cal bullets in the 300 grain or the 325 FTX size
4. don't have the rod on the gun when shooting
5. cold barrel/heat is the enemy of sabots/summer shooting is not so good try for the cool of early morning and wait at least 15 minutes between shots or get a cool rod from rossman40 over on Dougs.
6. Safety is very important!! mark your loading rod/range rod anddo not be distracted when shooting/loading at the range.

Hope you find the SML to your likeing. I'm an addict! W

http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/

 

[LarryBud]

that 43 gr load is kinda on the hot end for 4759 for my taste, some people shoot more but it can be punishing on the recoil end. Originally when the Ball guys were developing the Savage they shot 35 to 40 gr. of 4759 and that was plenty. Personally I have 2 MLIIs in 50 cal. and get good accuracy after a bit of tweaking. They are pretty much factory but I polished (JB) the bores and bedded the actions and floated the barrel. I use a folding loading rod in the field, no ramrod on a hanger for me, and a range rod at the range and for cleaning. I have found that .458 bullets in 300 or 325 grains weight in the orange or black crush rib sabot shoot best. Of the many 300 bullets available the accuracy seems pretty much interchangeable but the Barnes original and Speer give superior terminal performance. The Hornady 300 with it's deep hollowpoint has been somewhat fragile for my taste on terminal game performance but I'm pushing it at 21-22C and at close range it will frag. One of my barrels is SS and the other is CM-blue. the blue barrel likes the orange sabot with the 300 grain .458 bullets and the SS likes the BCR with the .458s. I have been shooting 4759 but it is hard/impossible find as no longer made. this season will be moving on to H or IMR4198 and have found source of Alliant Reloder 7. If you shoot faster powders like the 4759 and/or hot slower powder your vent can erode faster so get some hard ones and keep check on the size. Personally I like the Lehigh vent liners as they seem to be harder and will last a couple of seasons, 200+-shots, for me. You didn't say if your stock is lam or "Tupperware" but bedding and taking the flex out of the stock will help. I bed a section of graphite fishing rod in the ramrod channel on my guns to stiffen the forearm when I do the bedding job and it takes the flex out.

SO I will say to:
1. polish the bore
2. do a bedding job, hillbill has good process over on Dougs.
3. try .458 cal bullets in the 300 grain or the 325 FTX size
4. don't have the rod on the gun when shooting
5. cold barrel/heat is the enemy of sabots/summer shooting is not so good try for the cool of early morning and wait at least 15 minutes between shots or get a cool rod from rossman40 over on Dougs.
6. Safety is very important!! mark your loading rod/range rod anddo not be distracted when shooting/loading at the range.

Hope you find the SML to your likeing. I'm an addict! W

http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/

Thanks Wolfer,

Some great information here. I do have a couple of questions:

1) I tried a .458 325 FTX in a crushed rib and had to stand on it to push it through. I'll assume the I need the MMP Orange?
2) SR 4759 is in every gun shop around here. Is this different than plain 4759? The discontinued comment has me confused. I'm not sure what the SR even means?
3) I do have the camo factory stock, I do bed stocks. What do you think about the $100 Boyds laminate stock avaiable?
4) The manual suggest 43 grains but say you can back off 10% which would put you at 38-39 range. Have you tried these loads?

Again, thanks for the advise.

 

[GM54-120]

Yes, try the MMP Orange. The Savage 50cal i had preferred them too. I used 63gr of Reloder7 with the 325gr FTX but H4198 should work fine also. You will likely need more H4198 than Reloder7 to achieve the same fps. Both are fairly easy on vent liners. I just preferred Reloder7 because its a double based powder. H4198 has the potential for a higher max fps.

I would stock up on the SR4759 if you like it. When that supply is gone i doubt you will find any more. There are 2 SR4759s. The old one came in a metal can and was closer to VV N110 in pressure and burn rate. The newer SR4759 is in plastic 1lb bottles and isnt quite as "hot". I never used either in my Savage but my ULA likes it a lot with a 275gr BE. I use 42-43gr SR4759 (plastic bottle) with the 275gr BE without any issues at all.

I cant find the trace but IIRC 43gr of SR4759 (plastic bottle) and a 300gr bullet is under 35kpsi. Vent liner life may not be that great but i wouldn't be concerned unless you move upto a 325gr FTX or a more fragile 300gr. Bullets like the Hornady or Rem 458 300gr HPs dont need much fps to make good deer slayers.

 

[wolfer]

What GM54-120 said.

Loading should get a bit easier if you polish the bore but I think those 325 may be a bit larger than some other bullets. Yeah try the orange MMP. You might look for some .457 bullets too, don't know who has them but they are out there.

Wish I could lay hands on some of that 4759, It all disappeared around here last year. As for the boyds stock I'm not sure which one you refer too. Friend has a Boyds thumb hole under his MLII and I find the thumbhole stock is a bit difficult to operate the thumb safety, but I have short farmers sausage fingers. The standard lam stock seems OK to my preference.

As for loads I mostly shoot 38 or 40 gr. of the 4759 under the 300 gr bullets.
You may find that the 250 grain bullets in .451 or .452 shoot good for you. And the 42 grains will not have so much recoil with the lighter bullets. I would give them a light knurl.

Load development is a favorite part of a new gun right after putting it all together. Enjoy! W

 

[GM54-120]

If you do ever find some N110, it does extremely well in the 38-39gr range with a 250gr bullet. You gain little fps with 43gr but pressures start to get high enough for sabot disruption. 38-39gr N110/250gr is a cream puff load to shoot too. Recoil is very very light. Sadly, N110 is nearly impossible to find.

63gr of Reloder7 and a 325gr FTX is close to 2150fps and pretty low pressure. Its quite a bit lower peak pressure than a book load with a 300gr bullet. Recoil is a bit more than a "book load" but not as bad a 63gr of N120 (considered to be max) and a Barnes O 300gr(2300fps).

IMO 58gr of N120 is wonderful with well constructed 300gr or even a 325gr FTX in the Savage. Its even harder to find than N110 though 58gr with a 275gr BE is my THUMPER load in the ULA. Recoil is very stout in the ultra light but very reasonable in the Savage.

 

[LarryBud]

If you do ever find some N110, it does extremely well in the 38-39gr range with a 250gr bullet. You gain little fps with 43gr but pressures start to get high enough for sabot disruption. 38-39gr N110/250gr is a cream puff load to shoot too. Recoil is very very light. Sadly, N110 is nearly impossible to find.

63gr of Reloder7 and a 325gr FTX is close to 2150fps and pretty low pressure. Its quite a bit lower peak pressure than a book load with a 300gr bullet. Recoil is a bit more than a "book load" but not as bad a 63gr of N120 (considered to be max) and a Barnes O 300gr(2300fps).

IMO 58gr of N120 is wonderful with well constructed 300gr or even a 325gr FTX in the Savage. Its even harder to find than N110 though 58gr with a 275gr BE is my THUMPER load in the ULA. Recoil is very stout in the ultra light but very reasonable in the Savage.

GM54-120,

I'm back and forth accross MO all the time. Please PM me if you know who carries V110 or V120. I find plenty of Reloder 7, and the IMR products around KC. After all, Hogden / IMR is a local business for us.

 

[jims]

Occasionally some Cabellas carry that line of powder.

 

[GM54-120]

GM54-120,

I'm back and forth accross MO all the time. Please PM me if you know who carries V110 or V120. I find plenty of Reloder 7, and the IMR products around KC. After all, Hogden / IMR is a local business for us.

My local source hasn't been able to get either for about a year. Ive never seen any VV powder at my local Cabelas either. Grafs at one time did get some N110 occasionally. Last i heard its no longer being imported by the two major distributors that sold it.

 

[LarryBud]

Occasionally some Cabellas carry that line of powder.

Our Cabelas had a bunch of V but no 110. I'l look for 120 next time in.