Hard Hold Method?

[redpep]

Read an article on range shooting and it mentioned the Hard Hold Method.
Can anybody fill me in or send me in the right direction?

 

[jims]

I believe TarHunt shotgun recommends that with heavy recoiling guns. In effect a hard hold, pull back at the forearm is suggested. This would be as opposed to a varmint, light recoiling rifle where little or no pressure might be applied to the stock.

 

[Rifleman]

Jim you nailed it. After shooting the 10mlII I have found that holding the forearm is key to getting good groups consistently with just about any load that generates signifcant recoil.

 

[RAF]

This seems to me to require 3 hands, at least in my case :? I put the fore end on my rest. The stock is on the rear bag and a squeeze the ears with my left hand to adjust the elevation.

 

[Rifleman]

Raf, Lower your front rest, put your hand between the forearm and the bag, make minor elevation adjustments with your front hand. Takes a little practice.

 

[RAF]

For me, everthing take a lot of practice . My front rest is either too high or the rear bag to low. Can't bring the front down any more. Might have to get a higher rear bag. :x

 

[Mountain Man]

Rifleman, I have been shooting by putting the stock in the low rear bag with rabbit ears, putting the forend directly on my sand-filled front bag, adjusting until I get a dead gun with crosshairs just above my intended POI, then grasping the forearm just behind the front bag and applying pressure down and back. This snugs the forearm down into the front bag and brings the crosshairs down to my intended POI. I find less unintended movement of the crosshairs this way as opposed to putting my hand between teh forearm and front bag.

Problems? Recommendations?

 

[Rifleman]

Mountain Man, I think you are doing very well, anytime you can get a "dead gun" sitting on center, you are ok. The main thing is taking the time to get set up right before starting to shoot, and this is where I see most making a mistake. They just get impatient and start shooting before they are truly set up in a solid position. I shoot bags mainly without the fancy rests as I can find a dead gun fairly easy with a variety of holds. ( I have alot of bags ) Nothing wrong with the rests, I just am comfortable with bags. One thing you might check though is since you have essentally two points of contact on the forearm is if you have a poi change without the front rest touching as you might run into under field shooting conditions. I doubt it would be much if any, but something to check.

 

[Rifleman]

You guys might wanna click on this link for an article written by Randy Dunn on Bench shooting the Savage. After he wrote it he sent it to me for updates, additions, edits etc. I didn't have to do much as he had allready done a fine job. After you click on the link scroll down on the left and click on Updated Bench and shooting tips.

http://www.sav10ml.com/pages/main.htm

 

[jcchartboy]

Raf,

I have the Br comp rest.....all of the final elevation and windage adjustments are controled by the front rest...

http://www.battenfeldtechnologies.com/440907.html
Stock photo..

My rests...

 

[jcchartboy]

JIMS,

Here is the Tar-Hunt info....

the following piece was written by Randy Fritz owner of Tar Hunt Rifles.

Quote:
Although Tar-Hunt rifled slug guns perform similarly to rifles, they are not rifles and cannot be zeroed as if they were. Even the fastest slug is significantly slower than the typical rifle bullet. It is therefore extremely important to apply back-pressure to the forend of the stock with your left hand while you are shooting. Not doing so will result in the barrel of your slug gun jumping into the air off of the front rest, moving your point of aim and ruining your shot before the slug even has a chance to exit the barrel


He later goes on to say....

Quote:
Adjust the position of your gun as it sits in the forend and butt rests so that without having to touch the firearm the sight picture is dead on your target. Slide your body into shooting position without disturbing this sight picture. Begin applying shoulder pressure to the butt of the gun and offset any forward gun movement by pulling straight back with your right hand in trigger squeezing position. With your left hand on the forend of the gun's stock, pull firmly straight back and down at a 45-degree angle. Hold this pressure on the gun as you concentrate on keeping the crosshairs fixed dead on your target. Squeeze the trigger gently straight back until the gun fires.

 

[RogerDailey]

Raf, Lower your front rest, put your hand between the forearm and the bag, make minor elevation adjustments with your front hand. Takes a little practice.

Yup, that works very, very well. It also forms good "shooting memory" for shots in the field. I like the rear of the stock to meet my shoulder when I'm sitting pretty erect (shoulder straight up and down). For my bench, that means pretty tall rear bag; but the recoil is so much easier to handle!
YMMV
Roger D. in Southern Indiana

 

[RAF]

jcchartboy, I like your rest, way more screws and knobs than mine . I've got a Hoppes but it works for me.

 

[jcchartboy]

Thanks Raf,

They are unquestionably the best deal on the market for non competitive shooters. In fact I think I only paid a little over 100$ for my front rest. That compares very nicely with similar models that run in the 200-300$ range.

 

[Adkhunter]

The hard hold was described above wonderfully but is not necessary unless your gun needs more forend weight to help with jump.
It's just and excuse for poorly designed stocks and untrained shooters use.
IMO!!

 

[jcchartboy]

It's just and excuse for poorly designed stocks and untrained shooters use.
IMO!!

While I respect your right to your opinion, I would like to hear your thoughts on two facts that directly oppose your beliefs...

1). The Tar-Hunt RSG dedicated shotgun is currently considered to be the best custom rifled shotgun in the world. The stock on this gun was made in collaboration between Randy Fritz, (a World champion benchrest shooter, and custom gun designer), and Gayle Mcmillan, (the name is self explanatory.)
Clearly, these two industry veterans are producing one of top technically designed stocks in the world produced specifically for use on a hard rcoiling gun....
Please explain why Randy himself states unequivicolly that the "hard hold method" is the only proper method for accurately testing this gun from a benchrest?

2).Randy...Gail...and any number of other world class shooters all use this method when sighting in High recoil firearms...
Please explain why these gentleman would use this method, if according to your beliefs, the technique is only used by, "untrained shooters "

 

[redpep]

Hard Hold Vs. Free Floating

I'm the original thread starter.

Since the original post I have tried both ways with several different muzzle loaders. In the end I believe it all comes down to a consistent set method for every time you pull the trigger.

Don't blame the target if- you flinch, or grasp the stock different, or pull down on the front forearm more than the time before.

95% of us are just average shooters trying to turn a 1 1/2" group into a cloverleaf at 100 yds.

 

[Adkhunter]

It's just and excuse for poorly designed stocks and untrained shooters use.
IMO!!

While I respect your right to your opinion, I would like to hear your thoughts on two facts that directly oppose your beliefs...

1). The Tar-Hunt RSG dedicated shotgun is currently considered to be the best custom rifled shotgun in the world. The stock on this gun was made in collaboration between Randy Fritz, (a World champion benchrest shooter, and custom gun designer), and Gayle Mcmillan, (the name is self explanatory.)
Clearly, these two industry veterans are producing one of top technically designed stocks in the world produced specifically for use on a hard rcoiling gun....
Please explain why Randy himself states unequivicolly that the "hard hold method" is the only proper method for accurately testing this gun from a benchrest?

2).Randy...Gail...and any number of other world class shooters all use this method when sighting in High recoil firearms...
Please explain why these gentleman would use this method, if according to your beliefs, the technique is only used by, "untrained shooters "

The answer to 1 is that it is his opinion and not fact and just because he uses this method doesn't mean it's the cat's meow. The stock obviously is designed specifically for the hard hold method. That is like designing a special golf ball for a light swinging person.

The answer to 2 is, that is right. There area many as well as Randy do use the method and with some great success but it is not necessary. Drill a hole in your forend and add a 3 lb lead slug to it and watch your barrel stay put. Figurative term of course. Watch it tighten your groups with a high recoil rifle even with bad "tech form"
It sure does take away the "need" for the hard hold method.
Shooting is very simialr to many other sports out there. There is some technical abilities yet there are still ways that are not textbook that still allow you to get the job done with success as long as it is consistant. World class archers have bad form too yet hold the title year after year. Oh, they atribute it to their bows in public yet other know differently. many times it's just he string material comopsition/ ratios.
Talking about some being the "best" is so subjective to time frame you are talking about. What is hot today is gone by the wayside tomorrow.
JMO of an opinion.

 

[jcchartboy]

The answer to 1 is that it is his opinion and not fact and just because he uses this method doesn't mean it's the cat's meow. The stock obviously is designed specifically for the hard hold method. That is like designing a special golf ball for a light swinging person.

The answer to 2 is, that is right. There area many as well as Randy do use the method and with some great success but it is not necessary. Drill a hole in your forend and add a 3 lb lead slug to it and watch your barrel stay put. Figurative term of course. Watch it tighten your groups with a high recoil rifle even with bad "tech form"
It sure does take away the "need" for the hard hold method.
Shooting is very simialr to many other sports out there. There is some technical abilities yet there are still ways that are not textbook that still allow you to get the job done with success as long as it is consistant. World class archers have bad form too yet hold the title year after year. Oh, they atribute it to their bows in public yet other know differently. many times it's just he string material comopsition/ ratios.
Talking about some being the "best" is so subjective to time frame you are talking about. What is hot today is gone by the wayside tomorrow.
JMO of an opinion.

So based on your answer to point #1 you simply have no regard for the beliefs and facts supported by of one of the industries most accomplished shooters and designers. Not only are you disregarding the results of years of proprietary research that Randy has conducted himself, but also the data he has collected from the other prominant international gun/ammunition makers he works in partnership with such as Remington, Winchester etc.

While you are entitled to your opinions I am still interested in seeing some factual infomation that supports your beliefs or gives you reason to discount commonly accepted facts.

As for your response to the second point..."Drill a hole in your forend and add a 3 lb lead slug to it and watch your barrel stay put."...Not only would such an approach do very little to solve the problem it is obviously completly impractical. Such responses are usually refered to as "red herrings". Meaning simply, while it may seem to answer the original question, it really has nothing to with reality and only serves to deflect the conversation from the original point at hand.

While my response may seem critical I am simply intersted in learning what facts you are using to form the basis of your original statement...

Adkhunter wrote:

It's just and excuse for poorly designed stocks and untrained shooters use.
IMO!!

 

[Adkhunter]

There is a purpose for the hard hold method and that I am not debating nor am I going to.

Impractiacality is subjective again. So is a pretty custom stock when an ugly yet functional stock is made. Who wants to steal your ugly gun? Yet, looks are subjective too! :wink:

It's obvious that you like the method. Good for you. Some would defend Fred Bear to the end as well.:shock: Shoot straight and when it comes down to it, it's all about killing what is at the other end, paper or flesh. Do it any way you can, just be consistant with whatever method you use.