Help a frustrated Knight Ultra-lite owner?

[Dixiehunter]

Ok, I bought a new Ultra-Lite last year at the end of summer hoping to have a nice, accurate rifle for deer season. Ive never really been able to get the gun to shoot well, and my best group was probably 2.5 to 3" at 100 yards. I figured it was good enough for close range hunting and I'd try after season to tighten things up. It was brand new U-Lite, with a Leupold VX3 2 X 8 set in Weigand rings on Leupold bases. I had settled on 110 grains of Black horn and Hornady 250 grain SST bullets. I tried green smooth sabots and 240 grain XTPs but they would produce 4" to 5" groups at 100 yards.

Recently, I went back to square one and started with 90 grains og Black horn and the SST's and have gone up to 100 and now I'm lucky if I get a 3" group at 100. Also, it's become impossible to get a shot primer out of the gun without pulling the bolt and using a pocket knife to pry the primer out. A follow up shot on game would be impossible if it were needed. A little bit about myself, I have my own range, a very solid shooting bench, and I shoot off a Bald eagle front rest and rear bag. I shoot almost every day (one rifle or pistol depending on mood) even through the rifle. I'm confident this isn't me as I I shoot a lot and am very capable with all my rifles and handguns.

1. Which primer are you currently shooting?
2. Where is the primer sticking in the face of the bolt or the breech plug? I am guessing the face of the bolt.
3. If it is the face of the bolt have you tried re-cocking the rifle and pulling the trigger - that will re-set the primer back into the battery cup.
4. Have you cleaned the flash channel in the breech plug with a 5/32" hand turned drill



5. Part of your problem might be the primer. The breech plug is designed for the use of a Winchester W209 primer. Because of length it may fit the in the BP with a Slight crush which might stop your stuck primer problem. The is not real reason to use a Mag primer even when shooting BH. The Knight plug was designed for shooting BH with a regular primer.
6. The down side is the flash channel plugging with residue cause a build of gas pressure on the nose of the primer. Pushing the primer back out of the Battery Cup and back into the hammer hole in the face of the bolt.



I'm wondering what to do here. Any advice from experienced muzzleloader shooters. My only other experience with Muzzleloaders has been my old TC which groups 3/4 to 1" at 100 yards shooting pyrodex and 240 grain XTP's. On my Knight I recently re-mounted my scope in new Warne rings and bases to rule out that possibility. I thought I read that Knight has an accuracy guarantee? Maybe I should send it back to Knight but i it cam back after a few weeks with a note saying it shoots fine I'd probably take it outside and wrap it around a tree! If anyone can think of something I should try I'd appreciate it.

Accuracy... I am not sure why you may be having the problems. Bestill mentioned a couple of possibilities that are worth checking. The thought about plastic fouling with the new polymer formulations that both Harvester and MMP are using now is somewhat rare but not impossible.

I would emphasize the grip on the bullet that the sabot has and the grip of the sabot to the bore are criticaltdtd for accuracy. I would add that I have better luck with MMP sabots but I know for a fact that other prefer Harvester.s

It really might be worth investing in some JB's Bore Paste and give your bore a good rub-down with the paste and a tight fitting patch.

I really hope you find some answers.[/quote]
H dshydhj

 

[MJFlores]

This week I worked on getting different bullets and sabots. I ordered some 50 cal Harvester crush ribs and locally I picked up a box of Hornady XTP 45 cal 300 grain bullets, and 2 packs of the 300 grain SST's with sabot included. I also bought some Federal primers but they ended up being far worse than Winchester as far as blow back in my gun.

This evening I decided to walk out to the range and take 5 shots at 100 yards just to see if te 300 grain bullets made a difference. This evening I only shot the 45 cal 300 grain XTP's in crush rib sabots. This is actually an improvement but still pretty lousy.

These shots were done over 100 grains of BH by volume. I wasn't sure of the first shot as there was a strange delay between primer going off and the gun firing...like a flintlock delay. The remaining 4 I felt very good. As you can see...it's "sort of" a group. So what would you do? Increase powder charge? Tomorrow I'll try the same test with 300 grain 45 cal SST's. I really hope I can find something this rifle likes. FYI, the message I left with Knight last Friday has so far gone unanswered which is really unfortunate.

 

[silentstalker]

Im having almost the exact same problem with my muzzy. Huge "groups". The more guys I have visited with about it are recommending a tighter sabot for my gun. Im going o try the mmp hph -12 sabot this week as its quite tight and I am hoping that brings my groups down in size.

I wish you luck. If your anything like me, this is consuming your thoughts and frustrating!

 

[ENCORE50A]

This week I worked on getting different bullets and sabots. I ordered some 50 cal Harvester crush ribs and locally I picked up a box of Hornady XTP 45 cal 300 grain bullets, and 2 packs of the 300 grain SST's with sabot included. I also bought some Federal primers but they ended up being far worse than Winchester as far as blow back in my gun.

This evening I decided to walk out to the range and take 5 shots at 100 yards just to see if te 300 grain bullets made a difference. This evening I only shot the 45 cal 300 grain XTP's in crush rib sabots. This is actually an improvement but still pretty lousy.

These shots were done over 100 grains of BH by volume. I wasn't sure of the first shot as there was a strange delay between primer going off and the gun firing...like a flintlock delay. The remaining 4 I felt very good. As you can see...it's "sort of" a group. So what would you do? Increase powder charge? Tomorrow I'll try the same test with 300 grain 45 cal SST's. I really hope I can find something this rifle likes. FYI, the message I left with Knight last Friday has so far gone unanswered which is really unfortunate.

You have a very nice horizontal group. Shot #3 was the shooter, just throw it out.

The vertical stringing "may" have more to do with shooter technique/form than it does with the rifle. Things need to be done consistently each and every time. Even the placement of the finger on the trigger. Mounting the rifle to the shoulder differently can cause vertical stringing. The rifle must recoil straight back (squarely) on the shoulder each time. If you mount it a little lower or higher on your shoulder, it won't recoil squarely and straight back. Try to keep your head down and your cheek welded as best you can to the stock. Remain that way after the shot.
Try to shoot with the rifle as level in the rest/s as best you can. Your rifle should move smoothly in the rest/s.

Holding the forearm with your off hand............... There can be differing opinions rather to hold or not to hold. IMO do not try to hold the barrel down. Its not probable to be able to hold the identical downward pressure for each shot. This will definitely cause vertical strings, even with very heavy rifles. Tuck your free hand under the butt of the rifle. You won't see good shooters holding their forearm when shooting for groups.

It can get very costly trying to continuously chase bullets and sabots. Although changing up the charge by a few grains may help, IMO I'd work on my shooting technique. If your target showed it was throwing bullets all over that target, then maybe the bullet/sabot/charge but, you have a great horizontal group.

 

[MJFlores]

Although I never claim to be an expert at anything, In believe in this case it's the gun and not my form. Mind you, I'm very careful in saying that as most guns can A LOT better then we can. :lol:

I have my own range, so I shoot almost everyday unless it's raining...off the bench, standing, prone, as well as hand guns. I usually let a rifle slide in the bags undisturbed when on the bench but with very light rifles I do hold the fore end as they can often times recoil harshly before the bullet leaves the barrel. I have a feather weight model 70 in .30/06 that behaves a lot like this gun while recoiling and I do need ti hold the forend (not barrel) with my left hand to achieve good groups. I can easily shoot 3/4" groups in it until the barrel heats up significantly.

This verticle stringing is new since trying the 300 grain bullets and does give me slight promise. The .44 cal 240 grain, and the 45 cal 250 grain place holes all over the target randomly at 100 yards with no sense of pattern. Oddly, at 40 yards it groups rather nicely. I've inspected everything on this gun, crown, bedding, barrel float when cold and as it warms up between shots. The bore is very nice, green mountain seems to make nice barrels. I've changed scope mounts and rings, and have tested different guard screw torque. I'm tempted to give the gun a bedding job despite the aluminum bedding block. Can a Breech plu "wear out" or cause accuracy issues? I'm on my third jug of BH so it's got some rounds through it now.

 

[ENCORE50A]

.............. Can a Breech plu "wear out" or cause accuracy issues? I'm on my third jug of BH so it's got some rounds through it now.

Absolutely! When I was shooting Encore platform rifles, when groups opened up I replaced the breech plug and resolved the issue immediately. However I would normally get more rounds through them than 3 jugs of BH.
You're shooting too good a horizontal group. If its not mount/rings/scope, I'd work on form. Just my 2¢
Wishing you the best of luck. Keep trying.

 

[chaded]

My understanding is the brazen ventliner in the knight breechplug wears out pretty quick with BH209, well before three jugs of BH209.

 

[bestill]

Once ventliner gets over.036 imo accuracy is effected and typically creates over pressure on primer creating a leak.

 

[rangerod]

I must agree with you it sounds like the problem is the gun and not the shooter. In an earlier post you mentioned that the Federal primer caused even more blow by then the Winchester. If you have a lot of blowby it's no wonder you can't find any accuracy. I would suggest taking the proper measurements for head spacing and send to Bestill or send him the barrelled action and get the 17-4 BP. IMO trying different bullet/sabot combos won't do any good.

 

[SCHUNTER]

My UL shoots the 275 ballistic extreme and a short black mmp sabot and 90 grs bh209 moa or better at 100 yards with enough cooling time between shots. As the guys have said check the size of your vent liner and report back. I would second the install of the bestill breech plug and never look back. Although I don't have blow by in my UL I did have that problem in my Mountaineer.

 

[MJFlores]

Just spoke with Knight support, breech plug is bad. They're disposable usually inside 100 rounds. New one on the way! While on the phone I mentioned the primer sticking in the bolt face and that when shooting I keep a pocket knife on the bench to pull primers. They have a spent primer extractor tool coming out this summer, It'll be on their site soon. One will be here as soon as they're available!!

I'll update this thread in a week or so, when the new plug gets here.

 

[rangerod]

Was that a misstatement? BP disposable inside 100 rounds?...........HMMM. Tool to remove spent primer? Sounds a little unhandy especially when hunting. :huh?:

 

[MJFlores]

I agree about the sticking primers. As it is now, you'd NEVER get a second chance with my gun if you missed, and I do know guys who have dropped a deer with black powder on their second shot.

Yes, I've heard before that fixed vent lined breech plugs are a consumable with a short life when using BH. Looking back, my accuracy started tapering off after I got my gun sighted in, and then I started getting a dirty bolt face and sticky primers. Right now my bolt face is soaking in Hoppes to get the black crud off it, and I have no idea how I'm going to get the breech area of the receiver clean. This is after 5 shots. I even noticed that I had to hot the bolt handle to get it to open which I know know was a sign of excess pressure imposed on the primer because the flash hole is opened up from flame cutting. If this new plug works, I'll order a handful of them and replenish or replace when I get a dirty bolt face or around 70 rounds or so. Sucks i know but apparently thats what comes with this sort of thing.

 

[chaded]

I would be getting a plug from bestill on here and not look back. The buahing will last a very long time, perhaps your life depending on how much you shoot and you can just replace the bushing when and if you evuer needed to. Oh, and it would be headspaced correctly so no more blowback and sticking primers.

 

[Squeeze]

I average about 200 shots of 100 grain volume (70 wt) BH with a 300 grain bullet in several knights before the BP fails and accuracy drops. Heavier loads will burn it out faster

 

[ShawnT]

Do you see any blow back causing soot on the Sides of the primer or around the center of primer cup? The sticky primers sound like a headspace issue to me, Knight did send out rifles that had that issue as some reported here. Instead of a pocket knife try cocking the bolt again and dry fire that same primer, I would be it falls out then. If not make sure that slot is perfectly cleaned out and no carbon build up in the corners.

There are a couple ways to correct the head space issue. One is shimming the primer pocket but I would say that the Best option now is to get the Bestill plug. I just ordered one for my Ulite today. If you follow his measuring instructions I would bet that the primer issue would disappear.

 

[MJFlores]

Where do I get info on the Bestill plug? Does he or they have a website?

 

[MJFlores]

Never mind, found it on here. Has anyone tried one of them yet? How long do these plugs last?

 

[ShawnT]

Bestill is a Member. He was your first reply above.

But here is a link to his new Plug,

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=28435

The plug has a replaceable Tungsten Carbide insert that has the flash hole in it. So the Mail plug lasts pretty much forever. I'm pretty sure it has been used in smokeless for a while. I am sure he will chime in here. You could also PM him any questions. I have not used it yet. Just sent my order out for one to put in my Ultra Lite today. :yeah:

 

[jsteurrys]

Get the Bestill Breechplug and don't look back. Your Primer problems will go away.