Knight LK-93

[WTM45]

Cone striker face will fire both #11's and 209's. (With the appropriate breech plugs!)

See what the rifle has first. If you want to use the above linked breech plug, you will need the cone faced striker... and the RED FPJ's to hold your 209 primers. :yeah:

 

[rangerod]

Just considering all options I guess. If happy with #11ignition I will stay with it. This isn't a gun I necessarily want to sink a lot of money into.

 

[rangerod]

Gun was delivered the other day. Have tool ordered from Knight. Appears to be in pristine condition. Is there a way to remove the bp without the tool? Anxious to see what the bore looks like.

 

[Squeeze]

What exactly is a vented breech plug for Red discs? Arent all BP's vented? It doesnt say size of the flame hole or that its removeable/replaceable (and if it IS, would be a knight first) All I see is a regular red disc BP, That coupled with the proper firing pin assembly WILL work. But since BH powder is NOT recommended By either the manufacturer of the gun, OR the powder in plunger style weapons as a safety issue. If you want to go ahead and do it anyway, have at it. But to recommend it saying It works for me, is akin to saying My car works great with no brakes. Havent had one problem yet.

 

[rangerod]

I don't think Knight vented bp's have replaceable vents. I think they are braised in. I could be wrong and if I am someone please correct me. Squeeze you have been a big help to me with this gun. I have decided definitely NOT to use bh. Wondering if I can get bp out without tool.

 

[rangerod]

You know it may seem a little strange but I have no experience with any powder other than bh. Ben muzzleloading for about four years. I kinda like the idea of trying something else. I guess that's one reason I bought this gun. The questions I asked about bh in this gun was more or less covering all the bases. From what I've learned it doesn't look like bh such a great idea. Why take an unnecessary chance? It also doesn't look like any advantage to 209 ignition either.

 

[WTM45]

There is inherent risk in ANY ignition system on a plunger style rifle. Be it a #11 cap, a musket cap, a bare 209 primer or a 209 primer in a FPJ.
That's with ANY propellant.
ALWAYS USE EYE PROTECTION ALONG WITH HEARING PROTECTION.

Through my HANDS ON experimenting and range time I have found the 209 in a RPJ to be the most sure fire ignition system available for a plunger gun. I have also made the determination it is the safest form of ignition for a plunger gun as well.

I may be the only one posting here who has tested BH209 (among other subs and pellets) using the RPJ and a vented breech plug in a plunger gun. My sample set of Wolverine II rifles are magnum rated 26" Green Mountain tubes, and I openly state that may be a major factor to their success in using BH209 so well. I have not tested this system throughout the entire plunger gun line.

In my rifles, with the above system BH209 works. And it works VERY well.
I KEEP CHARGES OF BH209 AND 777 UNDER 100grV.

Now, Knight offers that type of breech plug even though the vent liner is brazed in. They themselves recommend it for "modern black powders."

 

[rangerod]

After examining the bp I see that it is slotted and won't come out with a socket. Also I can't get at the slot because the nipple is in the way.

 

[WTM45]

Unfortunately, all my bp tools are for hex. I don't have one for the slotted #11 bp's. If you are handy, a 12mm deep well socket can be "machined" to work on a bench grinder with a little time and effort. It can work in a pinch. But I would call Knight and ask if they have any tools and if they would send you one.

There was a nipple removal tool and a slotted breechplug removal tool. You may need them both. Or try to modify something from barstock if you are handy. Sure hope someone can help you out.

 

[WV Hunter]

The tool for that gun has one end for the #11 nipple, the other for the slotted breech plug.
Removing the nipple and plug can be done without it but its not as simple as "do this". Usually some backyard engineering involved.
If you can figure out how to get the nipple out, a large screwdriver (like prybar size) could probably be used to insert into the slot of the BP, and then turn it out. Assuming its not stuck or super tight. You don't want to mar up the rifle or mess up the BP, it may be best to wait for the tool to arrive.

Regarding the ignition and powder... I've been shooting the Knight plunger rifles for almost 25yrs. The #11 ignition is the simplest, easiest, most effective setup in these rifles. Sure, you can use the 209 ignition - I have, and as posted some are using BH209 (I have not, its not recommended)... but honestly, I don't see where 209 ignition or BH209 powder is necessary. If you take proper care of the rifle and your prep and cleaning routines are good...it will fire instantly every time. Most of my Knight plungers will shoot MOA if I do my part - with #11's and pyrodex. It doesn't get much better than that. I do use BH209 in my DISC Knights, but that is a totally different setup.

Wish I had an extra BP tool to send you, but I don't.

 

[WTM45]

Western states BH209 was designed for "sealed ignition systems."
They do not have a list of "approved" or "not approved" muzzleloaders on their website. They defer the owner to the manufacturer of their specific rifle.
So, checking with Knight and they do not openly state BH209 is "not recommended" for their plunger rifles. They don't endorse or recommend any bp sub specifically by name. They do state under the description of their FPJ 209 vented breech plug that it was redesigned and improved...

"Continuing in our tradition of bringing innovation to the muzzleloading industry, we redesigned our breech plugs to better accommodate modern black powders. The fixed vent design provides 40% longer life and drastically less blowback."

I have tested multiple types of NFPJ 209 plugs in plunger rifles (magnetized and non) and obtained poor results with various powders. I do not feel they are safe AT ALL with any propellant. More unsafe than #11 caps, and I feel even those have a risk of ejecting a cap or cap pieces from the open action. I have not tested a plunger rifle with a NFPJ plug that has a ventliner.

Just the very need of having to keep two different tools, one to remove a nipple and another to remove a slotted breech plug is enough to show the #11 plug is not the most simple, nor is it the easiest to maintain. That was the original Wolverine/LK technology. Newer plugs are available and tools for maintaining them can be found in any simple socket set.

1. A 209 primer in a FPJ is a fantastic, safe, weather sealed and unaffected by temperature and moisture ignition system!
2. Vent liner breech plugs have a significant impact on the ignition of propellants and result in much less blowback.
3. Knight has stepped up and offers that very plug now, although it is brazed in, direct from their website.

 

[WV Hunter]

WTM, for the Knights that have the slotted BP its only 1 tool. Nipple wrench is on one end, BP tool on the other. Some of my MK's have the "newer" style Knight BP that is hex that can use the provided factory tool, or a socket as you said. Its certainly easier and I prefer it, but not needed if you have the proper tool for the slotted breech plug.

Not arguing with you, you are certainly entitled to do what you want. Personally, I don't see any advantage to go to the expense to convert a plunger rifle to be capable of shooting BH209. It costs a decent amount to do the conversion, then it costs more to shoot...and its not likely to shoot much if any better. Yes, I wouldn't have to swab between shots...but other than that, no major gain in my book in that style rifle. my .02 fwiw

 

[Squeeze]

The LK93 was made from '93-'99 BH powder didnt come out till almost a decade later. they would have no mention of a powder not yet produced in the manual. BH clearly states the types of breech designs and actions it is compatible with

 

[WTM45]

Some of the original tools had the "t" handle with the end being machined for the nipple, but no "screwdriver" slot milled on the other end. Two tools were part of that combo. Or a big flathead screwdriver!

I understand expense and cost of upgrading older rifles. For those who simply can not afford a new stick, and have a plunger rifle with the cone firing pin plunger face, they can make a significant upgrade to their shooting by simply buying the new FPJ 209 vented breech plug for less than $30. I know that also means stocking in some FPJ's but they are not very expensive relative to the cost of the propellants and 209 primers. Of course, if one is quite stocked up with #11 caps and black, well they are not at a major disadvantage! :mrgreen:

I personally feel the 209 ignition is more dependable in crazy weather and temperatures. I have had great results with it in some nasty New England weather conditions and southern humidity. One can choose the propellant they like, and for all the proven benefits of BH209 I'm really liking what it has done for me.

 

[WTM45]

The LK93 was made from '93-'99 BH powder didnt come out till almost a decade later. they would have no mention of a powder not yet produced in the manual. BH clearly states the types of breech designs and actions it is compatible with

I know when BH209 came out. Got one of the first cases to hit my area.
Western clearly states what their designs were in creating the propellant. It was designed for "sealed ignition systems."
That is what they still state.
"Blackhorn 209 was specifically designed for modern in-line muzzleloaders with sealed ignition systems using standard 209 shotshell primers. Check with your rifle’s manufacturer for compatibility."

They do not openly post a list of "approved" or "non approved" actions. They refer the owner to their rifle's manufacturer.
E-mails exist where they have listed breech plugs they have tested themselves.


There just might be a good reason why Knight now offers the FPJ breech plug vented! :mrgreen: :yeah:

If Knight or Western wants to come out and specifically state they have tested and found BH209 not suitable in plunger guns with this vented breech plug then that is on them. I am only stating what I know to work and has been reliable and safe.

There are TONS of additional variables involved here. Sabot type, bullet weights, individual barrel fit, how one measures their charges, how tightly or loosely the charge is tamped... on and on. Each rifle can be an example of "one" and testing requires much more than slipping a primer loaded FPJ on a nipple and letting loose with a load. I strive for optimal barrel fit with projectile and sabot, ONLY USING SABOTS, and keeping loads to below 100grV. I throw my charges on a 5-0-5 scale calculating the equivalency to take the volume variation out of the mix.

 

[rangerod]

I ordered the nipple/breach plug wrench yesterday from Knight and later realized I ordered the wrong one. Called them answered on the fourth ring. They took care of it. Maybe (hopefully for their sake) customer service improving.

 

[rangerod]

Sure would like to have that UL.

 

[WTM45]

I sure wish I still had one in my toolbox. It would be on its way to you today!
Even called a shooting buddy and he could not find one in his stuff either.

 

[rangerod]

Thanks for offer WTM45. I asked the seller if he had the wrench before I got the gun. I don't suppose he looked very hard for it.

 

[rangerod]

Bought some CCI #11 caps but they don't fit snugly. Do I crimp them? Is there another cap that will fit snugly? Thanks for any response.