Liquid Wrench Results

[JStanley]

Recently, Semisane recommended I try liquid wrench as a patch lube in my T/C Hawken .50 cal.

http://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=22372&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Being the standup guy he is, he sent me some samples of patches in two different thicknesses with the Liquid Wrench applied to try in my rifle. Well I finally had the time to give them a try. Previously, I couldn't get any patches to survive much beyond blown to smithereens and I tried various thicknesses and lubes. Here is what I got with Semi's patches, with one control patch that I cut at the muzzle and was lubed with Moose Milk from Cayuga's recipe.

The control patch on the left was the most intact patch of the group. I don't attribute any of that to the cutting at the muzzle, but I think it might be the thinner patch coupled with more lube (applied twice). The patch felt pretty slippery.

What do you all think is my problem/next move? The patches from Semi look exactly like all the other patches I have previously shot (if I can even find the pieces) Accuracy is pretty good (for me :wink: ) 3" groups at 50 yds. but am I loosing velocity/power? The patches seem to be telling me something, I just don't know what :huh?:

 

[Semisane]

Holy Incineration Batman! I've never gotten patches that badly blown, even with 105 grains of GOEX in my .54s. Fairly stiff loads of Triple Seven will blow patches for me. But not that bad.

I really don't have a clue as to what's going on, and can only guess that your load of 75 grains Swiss is a really hot bugger.

It would be interesting to shoot that load over a chronograph. Have you backed it down to 60-65 grain loads to see what happens? Have you tried another powder (Pyrodex RS) and gotten the same results?

 

[JStanley]

Holy Incineration Batman! I've never gotten patches that badly blown, even with 105 grains of GOEX in my .54s. Fairly stiff loads of Triple Seven will blow patches for me. But not that bad.

I really don't have a clue as to what's going on, and can only guess that your load of 75 grains Swiss is a really hot bugger.

It would be interesting to shoot that load over a chronograph. Have you backed it down to 60-65 grain loads to see what happens? Have you tried another powder (Pyrodex RS) and gotten the same results?

Only the 75 gr of Swiss so far. I'll try your prescription(s) next. The funny thing was, it wasn't too hard to find those patches-even in tall grass. Just had to look for the smoke column rising from the patch! :lol:

 

[excess650]

I've shot Swiss ffg behind PRBs and never burned a patch that badly. When I did burn patches, it was usually a combination of too thin patch and a lube that wasn't gettin' 'er done.

How tight are your PRB combinations? If you're thumb startin' 'em in the muzzle, they're too loose. If you have to bang on 'em with a short starter, they're too tight.

I've been using mink oil from Track of The Wolf for patch lube. My patches look like they can be shot more than once. A friend has shot the same patch more than 3 times, but that was cotton duck cloth.

BTW, I do not like Swiss in the MLer. The fouling is noticeably drier than that left from Goex, Elephant, KIK, and Diamondback. Yes, the Swiss is a strong powder, but I prefer to use another brand fffg and get softer, moister fouling so as to not have to swab between shots.

 

[JStanley]

I've shot Swiss ffg behind PRBs and never burned a patch that badly. When I did burn patches, it was usually a combination of too thin patch and a lube that wasn't gettin' 'er done.

How tight are your PRB combinations? If you're thumb startin' 'em in the muzzle, they're too loose. If you have to bang on 'em with a short starter, they're too tight.

I've been using mink oil from Track of The Wolf for patch lube. My patches look like they can be shot more than once. A friend has shot the same patch more than 3 times, but that was cotton duck cloth.

BTW, I do not like Swiss in the MLer. The fouling is noticeably drier than that left from Goex, Elephant, KIK, and Diamondback. Yes, the Swiss is a strong powder, but I prefer to use another brand fffg and get softer, moister fouling so as to not have to swab between shots.

The starting of the ball/patch requires a pretty sharp smack on the short starter. My patches have been pretty dry also. It seems that my best results so far have been with the thinner and "wetter" patch - the one on the left in the pic above. It may just be I'm not using enough lube like you say. I also wondered if the patches were cutting on the way down the barrel - you know, getting pre-trashed on loading.

 

[Semisane]

I wouldn't think patch cutting is the problem. Those patches appear to be burned through under the center of the ball.

 

[cayuga]

If I had to guess.. I suspect some real old material there. As material ages, it gets weaker. I have never seen a patch blown like that. Next time, put two cotton ball down first and then the patch and ball and see what happens.

Very interesting post.

 

[shguns]

last staurday I shot my .54 TC Hawken barrel with PRB, first I tried some 0.010 patches from TOW with their mink oil lube and .535 dia ball. those patches were shredded and I used a 28 gauge fiber wad between 70 grns Pyrodex P powder and ball.
then I tried some cotton twill from the fabric from the fabric store that measured right at .020 and .530 dia ball, still using a wad, mink oil lube, I could have reused the patch I found.
So far I like the mink oil lube and .530 ball with a patch at least 0.015 thick.
I had Swiss powder with me but didn't try it with PRB this time. I am planning on trying Pyrodex RS next time with one thickness of patch and .530 ball and start at 50 grains and work up hoping to see small groups at some level between 50 grns and say 100 grains powder, with or without the wad.

Maybe you could try a wad next time.

 

[JStanley]

If I had to guess.. I suspect some real old material there. As material ages, it gets weaker. I have never seen a patch blown like that. Next time, put two cotton ball down first and then the patch and ball and see what happens.

Very interesting post.

My earlier tests, prior to Semi's patches, gave the same results of burnt up patches. The fabric was brand new. The best results were with the most lube applied. I'm wondering if dry cotton just plain ole burns up too easily. (Relatively dry that is). I have some Pyrodex RS and P to try along with lower Swiss charges. Also, more lube. How much lube is too much?

 

[excess650]

Try another lube, or at least more lube on your patches. Vegetable shortening will work just fine. Avoid petroleum products so as to not create a fouling issue.

 

[guitarpicva]

I was also going to comment that a petroleum product may be your culprit....being rather flammable.

 

[JStanley]

Wow, it's been a long time to resolve this issue. I finally think I have found a good combo to make this rifle a round ball shooter. I switched to Swiss 2f but more importantly, I think the real improvement came from using Cayuga's method of spritzing the patch with his moosemillk recipe just before loading. This gave excellent accuracy at 50 yds and patches that were nearly intact after shooting-just singed around the edges. My next question is how do you do this process when hunting? Just take the spritz bottle in your possibles bag?

Thanks to everyone for all the great input!

 

[cayuga]

I had a bottle for eye glass cleaner. Its very small. I would describe the bottle as the size of my thumb. I fill that with moose milk and carry that in a pocket. When I have been shooting recently, I have to admit.. I spritz the patch before loading. And I have hunted with them, and never had a problem with it killing the charge. The trick is.. don't saturate them. Just a light mist is all it needs.

 

[wolfer]

If you are worried about the charge getting fouled by the moose milk just use a wad made of wax paper under the prb. As for "misting" while hunting, easy, just mist some patches and keep them in a medicine bottle with the snap cap in your possibles bag. They will not dry out. I use pre lubed patches or roll patch. 1-1 of beeswax and rendered deer tallow, mix and melt in microwave and soak the patches. Ya can't hardly use too much lube with black powder. You might also think of making a "cookie" to go under your prb. That will surely solve your burned patch problem and keep that Swiss soft too. "Cookies" are typically used in BPCF but work the same in ml too.

 

[Semisane]

Dang it JStanley - I'm a doofus. I just read this old post again and realised I missed something you said in your original post. You said "he sent me some samples of patches in two different thicknesses with the Liquid Wrench applied to try in my rifle". I don't know how I missed it. But those patches I sent you were not lubed. They were dry. Now wonder they burned up the way they did.

 

[JStanley]

Dang it JStanley - I'm a doofus. I just read this old post again and realised I missed something you said in your original post. You said "he sent me some samples of patches in two different thicknesses with the Liquid Wrench applied to try in my rifle". I don't know how I missed it. But those patches I sent you were not lubed. They were dry. Now wonder they burned up the way they did.

:d'oh!: :d'oh!: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Don't sweat it Semi, how big of a doofus am I not to recognize dry patches when I see 'em?

I'm using the patch material shown at the top of the post, brown striped pillow tick, .012" compressed, spritzing with Cayuga's moose milk and patching at the muzzle. The patches are burnt a little around the edges but otherwise look pretty good. I think my problem all along was using the patches too dry, whether with my lubes or "phantom" liquid wrench. 8)