Sabots and Round Balls ?

[LHR]

I don’t hear any talk of folks using this combo but today I stumbled upon a pretty good combInaction for the Renegade .50 cal.


It was a cool 12*F as I went out to the range determined to figure out a load that my Renegade will shoot decent. I had watched some Idaholewis videos and saw him put a second patch between the powder charge and the patched ball with the idea of protecting the patched ball from getting shredded during the burn.

So I tried this method after my first 3 shots with single patches were all over the place. The second patch did help but accuracy still suffered. On the fresh snow I was just finding shreds and threads. With the second patch I did find some patches that were some what intact, but pretty shredded still. Shot with 80gr. 777 ffg.


So this is clearly not working and I feel that the patches are too thin. I’m using .490” Hornady round balls with pillow ticking pre-lubed patches from T/C. So I dug around in my possibles box and found some .440” round balls and some 44/50 green smooth harvester sabots. So, I though what the hey, I’ll give it a go. 80gr. 777 showed some promise as the groups started to come together.

Top 5 shots were with this combo.


So I had only 5 balls left at this point so I decided to bump up the charge to 90gr. 777 and see what would happen. And I’ll be... look at that an actual group!

I‘ve come to really like shooting this ole Renegade and may get where I could hunt with it some day. Before I forget all shots were at 50 yards. Chrono showed the .490” PRB with 70gr. 777 was around 1700 fps, 80gr. 777 gave around 1840 fps.

.440” RB with green sabot / 70gr. 777 was 1836 fps, but the sabot smacked the front of the chrono so I stopped shooting over it for now. I need to build a box around it to protect against damage and see where the 90gr. charge is at, I’m guessing close to 1950-2000 fps?

 

[deermanok]

Interesting data. I know that Hornady sells a round ball and sabot combination. Hard Ball, I think they call it?
Just goes to show that every gun is a bit different in what it likes.
I use Idaho Lewis method of double patching. I could probably reuse the fired ones that I find.
One issue you might have is a rough bore. Take a look at Mike Beliveau, aka the duelist, video on YouTube. He demonstrates his method of polishing a bore.
Good shooting at any rate.

 

[bronko220002]

Deermanok, I was thinking the same thing. One patch getting burned up I can understand but now with an underpatch. Sounds to me like the bore needs a good lapping.
As for the ball/sabot combo it seems to me that using a .440" ball and a green Harvester sabot that load would be awful tight. That sabot is designed for a .429-.430" bullet. The black sabot is for a .451-.452" bullet so it would be loose with that one.
LHR do you have a sabot specifically for your round ball??

 

[LHR]

As for the ball/sabot combo it seems to me that using a .440" ball and a green Harvester sabot that load would be awful tight. That sabot is designed for a .429-.430" bullet. The black sabot is for a .451-.452" bullet so it would be loose with that one.
LHR do you have a sabot specifically for your round ball??

No , it is just the smooth green 44/50 harvester. It does start very tight, but once it starts going it’s pretty smooth all the way down.

 

[snapbang]

Looks like you have a winner.

 

[gle3105]

12° F. That’s gotta be cold lead. L O L

 

[eekjellander]

I don’t hear any talk of folks using this combo but today I stumbled upon a pretty good combInaction for the Renegade .50 cal.

View attachment 19979
It was a cool 12*F as I went out to the range determined to figure out a load that my Renegade will shoot decent. I had watched some Idaholewis videos and saw him put a second patch between the powder charge and the patched ball with the idea of protecting the patched ball from getting shredded during the burn.

So I tried this method after my first 3 shots with single patches were all over the place. The second patch did help but accuracy still suffered. On the fresh snow I was just finding shreds and threads. With the second patch I did find some patches that were some what intact, but pretty shredded still. Shot with 80gr. 777 ffg.
View attachment 19980

So this is clearly not working and I feel that the patches are too thin. I’m using .490” Hornady round balls with pillow ticking pre-lubed patches from T/C. So I dug around in my possibles box and found some .440” round balls and some 44/50 green smooth harvester sabots. So, I though what the hey, I’ll give it a go. 80gr. 777 showed some promise as the groups started to come together.

Top 5 shots were with this combo.
View attachment 19981

So I had only 5 balls left at this point so I decided to bump up the charge to 90gr. 777 and see what would happen. And I’ll be... look at that an actual group!View attachment 19983View attachment 19982

I‘ve come to really like shooting this ole Renegade and may get where I could hunt with it some day. Before I forget all shots were at 50 yards. Chrono showed the .490” PRB with 70gr. 777 was around 1700 fps, 80gr. 777 gave around 1840 fps.

.440” RB with green sabot / 70gr. 777 was 1836 fps, but the sabot smacked the front of the chrono so I stopped shooting over it for now. I need to build a box around it to protect against damage and see where the 90gr. charge is at, I’m guessing close to 1950-2000 fps?

You realize sabots are not the solution ,that can be found at Joannes fabric stores .It does require spending some time learning what a proper patch is for your ball weight in relation to desired velocity along with a proper lube . Non of these variables are generic ,they need to be applied to your particular barrel . This forum is great for suppling short cuts that help speed the process but you sound like you have skipped over the vast amount of info and jumped into sabots which for the most part enables you to shoot small calibers in a larger caliber bore or shoot jacketed pistol bullets in a barrel meant to shoot bore dimensioned cast bullets @ 12-1300 FPS (Black powder) velocitys or RB s properly patched a bit faster 16- 2000 fps depending on powder/amounts and again (proper) patching/Ed

 

[LHR]

You realize sabots are not the solution ,that can be found at Joannes fabric stores .It does require spending some time learning what a proper patch is for your ball weight in relation to desired velocity along with a proper lube . Non of these variables are generic ,they need to be applied to your particular barrel . This forum is great for suppling short cuts that help speed the process but you sound like you have skipped over the vast amount of info and jumped into sabots which for the most part enables you to shoot small calibers in a larger caliber bore or shoot jacketed pistol bullets in a barrel meant to shoot bore dimensioned cast bullets @ 12-1300 FPS (Black powder) velocitys or RB s properly patched a bit faster 16- 2000 fps depending on powder/amounts and again (proper) patching/Ed

Ed, maybe you missed the part where I was experimenting with what I had on hand. I have realized that my patching was the problem and I am working on fixing that. I will be doing some research to find what should work and go from there. The patches I tried are the only ones I have been able to find locally, anywhere!

I am completely new to patch and ball shooting, so I am learning as I go here. Maybe you can help me out, if I go to the fabric store as you suggest, what am I looking for exactly? Again I’m not skipping over info, I’m just new to this aspect of muzzleloaders. I’m sure not looking for shortcuts as you say.

I just thought I’d share what I found out today giving sabots a try, that’s all.

 

[eekjellander]

Ed, maybe you missed the part where I was experimenting with what I had on hand. I have realized that my patching was the problem and I am working on fixing that. I will be doing some research to find what should work and go from there. The patches I tried are the only ones I have been able to find locally, anywhere!

I am completely new to patch and ball shooting, so I am learning as I go here. Maybe you can help me out, if I go to the fabric store as you suggest, what am I looking for exactly? Again I’m not skipping over info, I’m just new to this aspect of muzzleloaders. I’m sure not looking for shortcuts as you say.

I just thought I’d share what I found out today giving sabots a try, that’s all.

PM me with contact info and I will send a bunch (ALL) sourced at Joann Fabric in a variety of material thickness/lubed and with what .You need to then do a search on lubes on this site and when you find what works go to store with calipers an try some that compare then go back with calipers and buy several yards of that same lot you tried .The next lot may not be comparable , Needless to say it does not happen over nite but it is a start, then there's the matter of ball sizes/powder charges (I said it takes time) HA /Ed

 

[GBG]

I need to build a box around it to protect against damage and see where the 90gr. charge is at, I’m guessing close to 1950-2000 fps?

Out of curiosity I once loaded some .350 PRBs in .45/.357 sabots over 150 grains T7-2F. IIRC MV was around 2800 fps from my .45 TC Omega's 28" barrel.

I didn't test for group size, but the little balls shot like a laser beam out to 25 yards and left 7/8" wide craters in thick mild steel plate. Think I'll try this load on some armadillos that have been digging up my lawn.

Edit: Federal 209A primers

 

[Muledeer]

I remember years ago they sold “ poly patches” a plastic patch sort of thing for round balls.

 

[Shorty]

Still got some, but only tried a few, as i always worried about the ball moving off the sabot when pointing the barrel down. That would not be good....

 

[Harley469]

I had never considered the idea, but if it works then go for it. Like Shorty said above, just make sure that ball stays in the sabot. Let us know at what distance you maintain accuracy. I have been using sabots with my .54 and 300gr Hornady XTP magnums with exceptional results out to 75yrds (about as far as I go with my eyes and traditional sights).

 

[eekjellander]

Ed, maybe you missed the part where I was experimenting with what I had on hand. I have realized that my patching was the problem and I am working on fixing that. I will be doing some research to find what should work and go from there. The patches I tried are the only ones I have been able to find locally, anywhere!

I am completely new to patch and ball shooting, so I am learning as I go here. Maybe you can help me out, if I go to the fabric store as you suggest, what am I looking for exactly? Again I’m not skipping over info, I’m just new to this aspect of muzzleloaders. I’m sure not looking for shortcuts as you say.

I just thought I’d share what I found out today giving sabots a try, that’s all.

I am trying to help but I suggested a solution see post #9 ,I know the problem but maybe a bunch of (LUBED) in various thickness (I've done all the work R+D ) and offered /you contribute $10.00 for priority small flat rate does not interest you /I tried Ed

 

[LHR]

I am trying to help but I suggested a solution see post #9 ,I know the problem but maybe a bunch of (LUBED) in various thickness (I've done all the work R+D ) and offered /you contribute $10.00 for priority small flat rate does not interest you /I tried Ed

Ed,
I really do appreciate the offer and I may take you up on that. That is awful good of you and I hope I didn’t come off snarky or ungrateful in any way. But I’m wondering if my efforts to go PRB should instead be going towards conical bullets?

My reason being that this Renegade project is helping me patiently wait for my Woodman Patriot .45 to get built. One of my main goals with that rifle is to learn to shoot full bore bullets. So I’m just thinking maybe I need to change direction anyway? Thoughts ?

 

[Okie Hog]

Round balls in sabots: That's good shooting. Triple Seven is a good consistent powder.

 

[Muledeer]

Ed,
I really do appreciate the offer and I may take you up on that. That is awful good of you and I hope I didn’t come off snarky or ungrateful in any way. But I’m wondering if my efforts to go PRB should instead be going towards conical bullets?

My reason being that this Renegade project is helping me patiently wait for my Woodman Patriot .45 to get built. One of my main goals with that rifle is to learn to shoot full bore bullets. So I’m just thinking maybe I need to change direction anyway? Thoughts ?

Now you have me thinking, i have been getting shredded patches also so I went with a felt wad. I wonder, MMP makes a sub base for magnum loads with a sabot, I have a few, I may just load one on top of my powder charge then my patched round ball.

 

[deermanok]

For patch material, a tight weave fabric that's 100 % cotton.
Something like pillow ticking is good. Red or blue stripe. I think the red is something like .015" thick and the blue is about .018.
Wash and dry it prior to use.
You can also find precut patches for different calibers from any number of sources including ebay.

 

[eekjellander]

Now you have me thinking, i have been getting shredded patches also so I went with a felt wad. I wonder, MMP makes a sub base for magnum loads with a sabot, I have a few, I may just load one on top of my powder charge then my patched round ball.

Better yet find out why your patches don't work ,a Canadian on American long rifle forum knows more about the subject than anyone I know . One of his 1st range days he wore (bell bottoms) and 200 yds targets with lots of powder 150+ , needless to say shoots (ALL DAY) without wiping #50 shot as accurate and easy loading as the 1st and he shoots awful (GOOD) groups . He does it with his method of loading /and his crown polishing . Daryl is worth following ,he's that good /Ed

 

[eekjellander]

Ed,
I really do appreciate the offer and I may take you up on that. That is awful good of you and I hope I didn’t come off snarky or ungrateful in any way. But I’m wondering if my efforts to go PRB should instead be going towards conical bullets?

My reason being that this Renegade project is helping me patiently wait for my Woodman Patriot .45 to get built. One of my main goals with that rifle is to learn to shoot full bore bullets. So I’m just thinking maybe I need to change direction anyway? Thoughts ?

Yup I have thoughts ,your Renegade barrel 1-48 ? will shoot both well and a round ball has a place especially in these times ! Less powder and lead equals more trigger time and you get lots more of it and squirrel are for experts shooting conicals (barking) as nothings left with body shots while the RB you can eat up to the hole . I own 1-60/1-56 twists (BOB HOYT) magic barrels and 1 -48/ 1-17 Rice and a 1-18 (Hoyt again) they all have a place but get the patched RB working and it will be worth all the time (quality ) spent and you can do with a lot less recoil as you get older . Learning to shoot either is a worth while event not everyone gets to do