Okay so I am thinking of trying to acquire a flintlock. It won't be for several months due to just getting an in-line, my first muzzy. I am looking for something second hand do to cost. Is that a reasonable idea? Are they able to be found at a reasonable price in good shape used? Finally what ones should I look at for a .50. I would like to stay with the same caliber as my T/C inline. And I am hoping to find a Hawken with set trigger.
What to look for in a .50 flintlock?
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Can not go wrong with a Caywood.
http://www.caywoodguns.com
Yes Danny will do, and does Rifled Barrels, and I would get a .54 CAL.
http://www.caywoodguns.com
Yes Danny will do, and does Rifled Barrels, and I would get a .54 CAL.
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A Hawken type rifle is possible, but the question is what you call a reasonable price. Also there are different makes of Hawken rifles. Some of the production to look for are Thompson Center, Traditions, Lyman Trade Rifle, Cabela's, and CVA.
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With that kind of budget, look at the Lyman Trade Rifle. I have one in 50 @ 54 caliber flintlock. Both are extremely good shooting. They shoot roundball and conicals, even sabots. They have a 1-48 twist and a very fast lock time.
Just about any of the flintlocks out there will work. I have shot the cheapy 200 dollar flinters and the 1000+ dollar flinters.
They all seem to work very nicely.
The deerhunters are very nice to shoot, are short, accurate, and I believe are a 1:48 twist. Cost is around 200 to 250?
Biggest problem with flintlocks, is going through the procedure before every firing. . .
1. Take a cloth and clean the business end of the flint to remove residue.
2. Take same cloth and wipe off residue from business side of frizzen.
3. Take wire and poke hole into main charge.
4. Fill pan completely flat with pan powder.
5. DON'T use black powder substitutes for pan powder!!!! It is ok to use Pyrodex R/S for your main load, but NOT for pan powder. The ignition temp is about 200 degrees higher for Black powder substitutes. Thus, your little sparky will probably not ignite your pan powder. I usually push a little pan powder in my flash hole.
6. If your flint is dull, either knap it, or replace it.
7. Don't pack your conical or PRB "tight" against the main charge. Have it "just resting" on "top" of your main charge.
You go through the above, your rock scratcher will have a tremendous reliability factor. Enough to say that when you pull the trigger, you *know* it will go off.
Lock time on a Flintlock is exceptionally fast. . .probably faster than a percussion, if all is done correctly.
They all seem to work very nicely.
The deerhunters are very nice to shoot, are short, accurate, and I believe are a 1:48 twist. Cost is around 200 to 250?
Biggest problem with flintlocks, is going through the procedure before every firing. . .
1. Take a cloth and clean the business end of the flint to remove residue.
2. Take same cloth and wipe off residue from business side of frizzen.
3. Take wire and poke hole into main charge.
4. Fill pan completely flat with pan powder.
5. DON'T use black powder substitutes for pan powder!!!! It is ok to use Pyrodex R/S for your main load, but NOT for pan powder. The ignition temp is about 200 degrees higher for Black powder substitutes. Thus, your little sparky will probably not ignite your pan powder. I usually push a little pan powder in my flash hole.
6. If your flint is dull, either knap it, or replace it.
7. Don't pack your conical or PRB "tight" against the main charge. Have it "just resting" on "top" of your main charge.
You go through the above, your rock scratcher will have a tremendous reliability factor. Enough to say that when you pull the trigger, you *know* it will go off.
Lock time on a Flintlock is exceptionally fast. . .probably faster than a percussion, if all is done correctly.
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The only thing I would disagree with Dwayne's list there is #5 & 7.
I agree that black powder is crucial in the pan. The frizzen depending on temperature and condition of the flint will only throw so much spark. And black powder is the very best powder at catching that spark and igniting. And while it is OK to use Pyrodex RS as your main load. I would not recommend it. I have tried almost every sub powder as a main pan powder in my flintlocks. And if you want to increase your chances of instant ignition, use black powder as the main charge also. If not, at least duplex the Pyrodex charge. I mean dump 10 grains of black powder first, then if you must, use Pyrodex for the remaining charge.
And #7
Here again, I always suggest to put your projectile firmly on the powder charge. Now I am not saying to stand on the ramrod or power force it.. but I do want my projectile tight to the powder. This creates compression. And compression is what I want to move that projectile. But of course each shooter has their own way of doing things. And what works well for one might not work for another. So sometimes you just have to wing it and try things on your own.
I agree that black powder is crucial in the pan. The frizzen depending on temperature and condition of the flint will only throw so much spark. And black powder is the very best powder at catching that spark and igniting. And while it is OK to use Pyrodex RS as your main load. I would not recommend it. I have tried almost every sub powder as a main pan powder in my flintlocks. And if you want to increase your chances of instant ignition, use black powder as the main charge also. If not, at least duplex the Pyrodex charge. I mean dump 10 grains of black powder first, then if you must, use Pyrodex for the remaining charge.
And #7
Here again, I always suggest to put your projectile firmly on the powder charge. Now I am not saying to stand on the ramrod or power force it.. but I do want my projectile tight to the powder. This creates compression. And compression is what I want to move that projectile. But of course each shooter has their own way of doing things. And what works well for one might not work for another. So sometimes you just have to wing it and try things on your own.
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For that kind of money check out Midsouth Shooters Supply. They have new Lyman muzzleloaders, and others. I have a Lyman Deerstalker flintlock in .54 caliber, and I really like it. You could also look at Thompson Center Hawkens, and Renegades, although you will probably have to buy these used, as Renegades are no longer in production, and a new Hawken is $700.00 +, if you can find one. I also own and shoot both of these T/C flinters, and they are good guns, but I would strongly suggest taking a long look at the Lymans.
About black powders and how it works.
What makes powder burn fast, is surface area.
In short, this is why 1F has larger "chunks" then 2F, which is larger than 3F, etc etc,
In the olden days of lore, they had granular powder, that was the size of your thumb, for lobbing the huge cannon balls without bursting the cannons themselves. The huge granules burned slow enough (because of surface area), they were able to produce the force slow enough without reaching breaching pressure of the cannons before the ball left the barrel.
Lets take a 1 inch square cube. It has six sides with a total area of 6 square inches of surface burn. (we will call that 1F)
Take that same cube and cut it in half, and we have two rectangles, each with a surface area of 4 square inches. We still have the exact same amount of powder, but we now have 8 square inches total of surface area to burn, instead of 6.
Take those same two rectangles and cut them in half. That means we have 4 cubes with a total of 3 square inches each, making a total of 12 square inches of surface burning.
As you see, we have the exact same amount of powder (by weight) and (by volume), but the only difference is, we have exposed more surface area to burn, in fact twice as much surface area quite easily. This means a much MUCH faster burn. . .twice as fast burn as the solid one inch cube.
Now, if you take your 4 pieces of powder and pack it all tight back into a little bundled up wad, your surface area is now restricted down from 12 square inches to maybe 8 or 10. This slows down the burn.
Take a look at firecracker powder. . .It will ALWAYS be in the finest powder form there is, for the fastest ignition, and the most surface area to ignite and follow through with that ignition of the whole thing. It is usually called flash powder. Reason: almost instantaneous ignition.
Lets take a look at our modern day powders. What is the fast powder used for? For Pistols and extremely small caliburs in which the projectile is VERY light, and will be forced out of the barrel exceptionally quick,before barrel breaching pressure is reached. For the most part, that usually means 45 cal or less. . .and if you push it to 50 cal, manufacturers usually ask you to use about 10 to 15 percent less 3F, than what you would use with 2F. Granted, there are some manufacturers that say it is ok to use 3F in their 50 cal, and sometimes their 54 cal. But they almost always say use less 3F than 2F. (3F is more surface area, meaning faster burn, meaning higher pressure before projectile leaves the gun).
What is slow powder used for? Higher cal guns, where the projectiles are heavier, and where the powder needs to burn slower, so that the breaching pressure is not reached before the projectile leaves the gun.
Now, the question becomes: How do you control the rate of burn of the powder you are using?
It is quite simple. . .It is all about surface area. You compact that powder down, you remove the surface area being exposed to the primary flame, and slow down the burn! And for this reason, the exact opposite exists. . .if you have a whole lot of air all around, and containment, you have a perfect bomb. What causes a bomb? Try loading a muzzleloader and have your projectile 6 or 8 inches away from your powder. You have the perfect bomb. Pure air, free and clear of any obstruction. . .loose powder that has *all* of its surface area exposed to be burned, and nothing to inhibit the burn. This is the exact reason why a person should always take his ram rod and shove it down the barrel after any kind of questionable Poof, that may let him believe the projectile never left the gun. In doing so, he has confirmed the project has either left, or has traveled up his barrel, making it a unsafe pipe bomb.
Now, lets talk about flintlocks and how the flame travels, as well as how it ignites.
What we are looking for, is "Lock-time". We want the lock time to be as fast as possible. Since flint locks do not use any kind of primary fire, like a "CAP", or a "Primer", the flame must migrate grain by grain through the pan, into the chamber, and through the main charge. (A percussion forces its fire into the main charge, as well as a primer).
We all know that surface area is the way a powder will burn, and the more surface area you have exposed, the faster it will burn. If you take that powder and compress it, you are removing the surface area, causing the powder to burn slower. (because it has less surface area burning, and it must migrate through a more solid object, similar to a fire migrating through a tunnel of 4F and a tunnel of 1F. ) It takes much longer to migrate through powder that is packed, than loose.
Now, how should we prime our pan? With LOOSE powder, spread out, and not compacted in any way. We want maximum surface area to ignite and spread to its fullest.
Now how do we want our main charge??? AS LOOSE as POSSIBLE but having the projectile ON the powder without forcing the powder to be "crunched","crushed", or "packed" into a size that is reducing the size of the powder more than what your "volume" measurement was when you started. This insures plenty of air pockets, air circulation, and allows the flame to migrate through these pockets quite quickly and rapidly, causing your lock time to be extremely fast.
You start "crunching down" your main charge, you will probably start getting those "FSSSST" bang! or something very similar. You stop crunching down, allow the powder and air to do its job, your shots will start ending up being a extremely fast click-bang, with the lock time being extremely short.
Just a little info on powders and how they work. . . (ignoring that as pressure increases, powder burns faster)
Dwayne
What makes powder burn fast, is surface area.
In short, this is why 1F has larger "chunks" then 2F, which is larger than 3F, etc etc,
In the olden days of lore, they had granular powder, that was the size of your thumb, for lobbing the huge cannon balls without bursting the cannons themselves. The huge granules burned slow enough (because of surface area), they were able to produce the force slow enough without reaching breaching pressure of the cannons before the ball left the barrel.
Lets take a 1 inch square cube. It has six sides with a total area of 6 square inches of surface burn. (we will call that 1F)
Take that same cube and cut it in half, and we have two rectangles, each with a surface area of 4 square inches. We still have the exact same amount of powder, but we now have 8 square inches total of surface area to burn, instead of 6.
Take those same two rectangles and cut them in half. That means we have 4 cubes with a total of 3 square inches each, making a total of 12 square inches of surface burning.
As you see, we have the exact same amount of powder (by weight) and (by volume), but the only difference is, we have exposed more surface area to burn, in fact twice as much surface area quite easily. This means a much MUCH faster burn. . .twice as fast burn as the solid one inch cube.
Now, if you take your 4 pieces of powder and pack it all tight back into a little bundled up wad, your surface area is now restricted down from 12 square inches to maybe 8 or 10. This slows down the burn.
Take a look at firecracker powder. . .It will ALWAYS be in the finest powder form there is, for the fastest ignition, and the most surface area to ignite and follow through with that ignition of the whole thing. It is usually called flash powder. Reason: almost instantaneous ignition.
Lets take a look at our modern day powders. What is the fast powder used for? For Pistols and extremely small caliburs in which the projectile is VERY light, and will be forced out of the barrel exceptionally quick,before barrel breaching pressure is reached. For the most part, that usually means 45 cal or less. . .and if you push it to 50 cal, manufacturers usually ask you to use about 10 to 15 percent less 3F, than what you would use with 2F. Granted, there are some manufacturers that say it is ok to use 3F in their 50 cal, and sometimes their 54 cal. But they almost always say use less 3F than 2F. (3F is more surface area, meaning faster burn, meaning higher pressure before projectile leaves the gun).
What is slow powder used for? Higher cal guns, where the projectiles are heavier, and where the powder needs to burn slower, so that the breaching pressure is not reached before the projectile leaves the gun.
Now, the question becomes: How do you control the rate of burn of the powder you are using?
It is quite simple. . .It is all about surface area. You compact that powder down, you remove the surface area being exposed to the primary flame, and slow down the burn! And for this reason, the exact opposite exists. . .if you have a whole lot of air all around, and containment, you have a perfect bomb. What causes a bomb? Try loading a muzzleloader and have your projectile 6 or 8 inches away from your powder. You have the perfect bomb. Pure air, free and clear of any obstruction. . .loose powder that has *all* of its surface area exposed to be burned, and nothing to inhibit the burn. This is the exact reason why a person should always take his ram rod and shove it down the barrel after any kind of questionable Poof, that may let him believe the projectile never left the gun. In doing so, he has confirmed the project has either left, or has traveled up his barrel, making it a unsafe pipe bomb.
Now, lets talk about flintlocks and how the flame travels, as well as how it ignites.
What we are looking for, is "Lock-time". We want the lock time to be as fast as possible. Since flint locks do not use any kind of primary fire, like a "CAP", or a "Primer", the flame must migrate grain by grain through the pan, into the chamber, and through the main charge. (A percussion forces its fire into the main charge, as well as a primer).
We all know that surface area is the way a powder will burn, and the more surface area you have exposed, the faster it will burn. If you take that powder and compress it, you are removing the surface area, causing the powder to burn slower. (because it has less surface area burning, and it must migrate through a more solid object, similar to a fire migrating through a tunnel of 4F and a tunnel of 1F. ) It takes much longer to migrate through powder that is packed, than loose.
Now, how should we prime our pan? With LOOSE powder, spread out, and not compacted in any way. We want maximum surface area to ignite and spread to its fullest.
Now how do we want our main charge??? AS LOOSE as POSSIBLE but having the projectile ON the powder without forcing the powder to be "crunched","crushed", or "packed" into a size that is reducing the size of the powder more than what your "volume" measurement was when you started. This insures plenty of air pockets, air circulation, and allows the flame to migrate through these pockets quite quickly and rapidly, causing your lock time to be extremely fast.
You start "crunching down" your main charge, you will probably start getting those "FSSSST" bang! or something very similar. You stop crunching down, allow the powder and air to do its job, your shots will start ending up being a extremely fast click-bang, with the lock time being extremely short.
Just a little info on powders and how they work. . . (ignoring that as pressure increases, powder burns faster)
Dwayne
Dwayne Thanks a perfect reminder of my demo training in the Army. I was a Ranger and therefore had some extra demolitions training that went into exactly what you were talking about. I was medicaled out after a parachuting accident. What you wrote was a perfect reminder for me that I needed. I have memory issues that can be helped by reminders like what you just did. When something brings back things that I learned it as in this case can be great! Some times it's not but that's for a nother forum.
In short Thank you.
In short Thank you.
That was a real nice post Dwayne. I'll bet that since Swiss BP, (my new favorite powder) has their grains of powder tumbled for a "polishing" effect; that's why they compact together a bit better by themselves. This accomplishes a couple of things that are advantageous to those who shoot it:
IF you can get your hands on Swiss, you will be pleasantly suprised like I was at how consistent the product is as well as its performance. I can't tell the difference in velocity between that and T7, it ignites very easily like most real bp's, and isn't really very hard to clean up at all.
- 1. More grains in a given volume of powder make it seem "hotter" than other bp's
2. A slightly slower burn rate that more closely approximates (but doesn't equal) BH209 - meaning it burns a little longer and more completely, doesn't leave as much residue and gives better velocities than other bp brands, though this is partly due to the first point.
IF you can get your hands on Swiss, you will be pleasantly suprised like I was at how consistent the product is as well as its performance. I can't tell the difference in velocity between that and T7, it ignites very easily like most real bp's, and isn't really very hard to clean up at all.
Hello JStanley,
I would love to try some Swiss. . .Only problem is, the availability. Around here, if you don't want to pay the hazmat fee, you can either use Goex or Pyrodex.
I tried some others, like Pioneer, and the defunked Clear Shot. . . along with a few others, but I have settle down with happily using Pyro 2F.
2F works fantastic in my Flint, as well as all my other guns. IT is a little cooler burning powder than 3F, and 3F is to hot for my 62 cal. Thus, 2F for me is a very safe all around reliable powder for me.
I purchase 2F for 13.55 a pound. Tax and all around 14.10 a pound, to my door. (because I pick it up <smile>). As much as I shoot, I can easily go through quite a few pounds a year. Thus, it is kinda hard to pay between 4 to 7 dollars more a pound, then having to rework new loads for accuracy!
I have never shot BlackHorn 209, but what I remember reading, it is a nitro based powder. . .much slower burning that regular Nitro powder, but still. That means GOOD containment is a huge necessity for reliable ignition.
The biggest problem I see nowadays(as well as a decade ago even), is that 99.9 percent of the people going into muzzleloading, or have been in ML, are totally clueless on powder and how it works. The only thing they know is. . .. stuff it down the barrel, stick in your primary fire, and shoot. If it doesn't shoot, it is the powders fault, the primary fires fault, or something else. Thus, we have people who swear by BH209, and some say it isn't as reliable. We have some people swear by Synthetics, and some say it isn't as unreliable. and the list goes on.
In actuality, we must look at why some people swear by it, and others don't. Why are some people so "Lucky"? (if that is the word for it). If you use real Black Powder, you just (almost) CAN'T go wrong. No matter how you pack it, no matter how little you use, no matter how tight or loose your conical or sabot is, it WILL fire. REAL BP is highly excitable and extremely easily to ignite.
In comes synthetics. . .Their ignition temp is 200 degrees higher, making them harder to ignite. A little less reliable, harder to ignite, needs more air space for proper fire migration. But if people load it like they do regular BP, they are cramming it down with force. When doing this, they are making a harder to burn powder into one big clump of powder with very little surface area exposed for burning. Will it light? Yep! Most of the time. Will the fire travel through the powder properly? Nope, sure won't. It will not travel through the REAL BP properly either, but it will travel easier because of the lower burn temp.
What happens? Synthetics get a semi bad wrap. . .all because of improper loading.
In comes Nitro based powders. . .including BH209 and all the other smokeless powders. . . They must have high containment, far FAR FARRR greater containment than synthetics or real BP. If not, you will (at the most) get a fssst poof. So BH209 gets some bad wrap. . . .Yet those who have good containment will swear for YEARS and 100's/1000's of shots.. .never a misfire.
Of course, all of this is ignoring the possibility of a bad primer, or actually wet powder, or something else. . .
I would love to try some Swiss. . .Only problem is, the availability. Around here, if you don't want to pay the hazmat fee, you can either use Goex or Pyrodex.
I tried some others, like Pioneer, and the defunked Clear Shot. . . along with a few others, but I have settle down with happily using Pyro 2F.
2F works fantastic in my Flint, as well as all my other guns. IT is a little cooler burning powder than 3F, and 3F is to hot for my 62 cal. Thus, 2F for me is a very safe all around reliable powder for me.
I purchase 2F for 13.55 a pound. Tax and all around 14.10 a pound, to my door. (because I pick it up <smile>). As much as I shoot, I can easily go through quite a few pounds a year. Thus, it is kinda hard to pay between 4 to 7 dollars more a pound, then having to rework new loads for accuracy!
I have never shot BlackHorn 209, but what I remember reading, it is a nitro based powder. . .much slower burning that regular Nitro powder, but still. That means GOOD containment is a huge necessity for reliable ignition.
The biggest problem I see nowadays(as well as a decade ago even), is that 99.9 percent of the people going into muzzleloading, or have been in ML, are totally clueless on powder and how it works. The only thing they know is. . .. stuff it down the barrel, stick in your primary fire, and shoot. If it doesn't shoot, it is the powders fault, the primary fires fault, or something else. Thus, we have people who swear by BH209, and some say it isn't as reliable. We have some people swear by Synthetics, and some say it isn't as unreliable. and the list goes on.
In actuality, we must look at why some people swear by it, and others don't. Why are some people so "Lucky"? (if that is the word for it). If you use real Black Powder, you just (almost) CAN'T go wrong. No matter how you pack it, no matter how little you use, no matter how tight or loose your conical or sabot is, it WILL fire. REAL BP is highly excitable and extremely easily to ignite.
In comes synthetics. . .Their ignition temp is 200 degrees higher, making them harder to ignite. A little less reliable, harder to ignite, needs more air space for proper fire migration. But if people load it like they do regular BP, they are cramming it down with force. When doing this, they are making a harder to burn powder into one big clump of powder with very little surface area exposed for burning. Will it light? Yep! Most of the time. Will the fire travel through the powder properly? Nope, sure won't. It will not travel through the REAL BP properly either, but it will travel easier because of the lower burn temp.
What happens? Synthetics get a semi bad wrap. . .all because of improper loading.
In comes Nitro based powders. . .including BH209 and all the other smokeless powders. . . They must have high containment, far FAR FARRR greater containment than synthetics or real BP. If not, you will (at the most) get a fssst poof. So BH209 gets some bad wrap. . . .Yet those who have good containment will swear for YEARS and 100's/1000's of shots.. .never a misfire.
Of course, all of this is ignoring the possibility of a bad primer, or actually wet powder, or something else. . .
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kg6ysf said:
I have two Traditions Flintlocks. But mine are the Woodsman Hawken Model. I can not swear that the Tennessee you like is the same, but the wood to hardware fit on my Hawken is excellent. The wood is beautiful and the lock is very fact. One of the rifles has a 1-66 twist (one of their original rifles) and the other is a 1-48 twist. If the Tennessee is anywhere as good as the Hawken, you would not be disappointed. But for that kind of money I might also suggest looking at the Lyman Great Plains or the Lyman Trade Rifles.
Here is my experience.
First off if you really want a flintlock to shoot they way they are able to you need two things which are mandatory. No matter what else works, these two work best.
That is real black powder such as GOEX and real hand knapped flints, like Black English or French Amber.
Yes there are some more lesser things you need to do but these two have no substitutes.
As for packing the ball down on the powder, just down on it firmly is all that is needed. Do not pack it or compress it. If possible use GOEX 4f as a prime, too, and use a greater amount instead of a lesser amount in the pan.
My choice of used flintlock rifles are:
1: Thompson Center Hawken
2: Lyman GPR
3:
4:
5:
6:
7:
8:
9: CVA (anything)
10: Traditions (anything)
Save yourself some frustrations and take this simple advise but in the end it is worth just what you paid for it.
First off if you really want a flintlock to shoot they way they are able to you need two things which are mandatory. No matter what else works, these two work best.
That is real black powder such as GOEX and real hand knapped flints, like Black English or French Amber.
Yes there are some more lesser things you need to do but these two have no substitutes.
As for packing the ball down on the powder, just down on it firmly is all that is needed. Do not pack it or compress it. If possible use GOEX 4f as a prime, too, and use a greater amount instead of a lesser amount in the pan.
My choice of used flintlock rifles are:
1: Thompson Center Hawken
2: Lyman GPR
3:
4:
5:
6:
7:
8:
9: CVA (anything)
10: Traditions (anything)
Save yourself some frustrations and take this simple advise but in the end it is worth just what you paid for it.
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A used TC Hawken as long as it does not have the QLA. They are still honoring the life time waranty. They will upgrade the lock on the old ones to the new better flintlock which works better for free.
What is it you have against QLA? I have, used and shoot both and can not really tell any difference.
QLA loads much easier but that is the only advantage or disadvantage I can tell.
If you shoot conicas it loads way more easy and I guess would be my preference. But I am not a conical shooter so I can take it or leave it. (in my side locks that is).
QLA loads much easier but that is the only advantage or disadvantage I can tell.
If you shoot conicas it loads way more easy and I guess would be my preference. But I am not a conical shooter so I can take it or leave it. (in my side locks that is).
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ebiggs1 said:
I think a lot of people are having problems with the QLA and conical s depending on how their barrels are produced.
