Blackpowder Subs, an Anology

[Swampman]

Would you buy .30-06 cartridges that go off 95% of the time and only work in 2 or 3 brands of rifles? Also there's no way of knowing if they'll work in your rifle without buying a box, and they cost twice as much????? :?

Lest we forget some only last a year or two, and then they are no good.

 

[kelleyga]

I would if they worked 100% of the time in my rifle and they were more accurate, higher velocity, and less recoil!

 

[Swampman]

Higher velocity and less recoil isn't possible. The laws of physics are still in effect.

Pyrodex is the only sub that works 100% of the time and it's no better than blackpowder.

 

[hjbuys]

I'm not clear on exactly what you're getting at, other than it's frustrating that shooting a muzzleloader continues to be quite costly. It's unfortunate that lawmakers seem to have decided in most states to block advances in muzzleloading that would make for cheaper shooting (i.e. smokeless powder instead of BP subs). In my opinion, using smokeless powder doesn't convey any advantage over BP subs in the field, but it sure would help cleaning time and rifle longevity not to mention reliability and low cost. I would also love it if a gun was made that would shoot normal bullets that you can buy in bulk instead of paying as much for ML bullets as I do for full rifle cartriges. That being said, I am hooked enough on ML's that I will continue to pay twice as much for powder/bullet/sabot combinations that work almost all the time.

 

[Swampman]

I'm just frustrated that none of the subs work very well in all modern guns. I can shoot my inline pretty cheap, if I stick with 3F blackpowder or Pyrodex and it goes off every time.

 

[SteveB]

I have at least 500 shots with T7 in the last 4 years in multiple White rifles and a shotgun.
70 to 80 with Bh209 in a TC Triumph.
Not one hang or misfire.
No swabbing between shots and easy cleanup.
Hard to be more reliable then 100%.
Don't care if it does notwork in other guns.

Steve

 

[MLKeith]

Black Mag'3 works in every one of my modern inlines and all of my sidelocks with exception of flintlocks, without any misfires or hangfires. The main problem besides the cost is that it is nearly impossible to find. I sure wish they could get their distribution problems solved. It is nearly as clean as smokeless with only light grey powder left as residue.

 

[SWThomas]

If you're talking about BH209, I really don't care because it works 100% of the time for me. Plus, it's non-hygroscopic so the other powders would lose their shelf life long before BH209 would. Unlike 777, Pyrodex, AP, Goex, BM.....

 

[Panhandle]

I'm not clear on exactly what you're getting at, other than it's frustrating that shooting a muzzleloader continues to be quite costly. It's unfortunate that lawmakers seem to have decided in most states to block advances in muzzleloading that would make for cheaper shooting (i.e. smokeless powder instead of BP subs). In my opinion, using smokeless powder doesn't convey any advantage over BP subs in the field, but it sure would help cleaning time and rifle longevity not to mention reliability and low cost. I would also love it if a gun was made that would shoot normal bullets that you can buy in bulk instead of paying as much for ML bullets as I do for full rifle cartriges. That being said, I am hooked enough on ML's that I will continue to pay twice as much for powder/bullet/sabot combinations that work almost all the time.

hjbuys
I feel as you do about the cost of shooting...That's why I've decided to shoot Remington .458 300gn HP and Hornady XTP's 250-300gn. Both of these can be obtained in bulk. $25-$28 per 100/ $12 per 100 for sabots. These bullets shoot and perform terminally as good as any, plus a guy can afford to shoot with what he hunts with.

 

[SWThomas]

hjbuys
I feel as you do about the cost of shooting...That's why I've decided to shoot Remington .458 300gn HP and Hornady XTP's 250-300gn. Both of these can be obtained in bulk. $25-$28 per 100/ $12 per 100 for sabots. These bullets shoot and perform terminally as good as any, plus a guy can afford to shoot with what he hunts with.

Which Remington .458 300gn HP's are you referring to? Do you have a link?

 

[Anonymous]

Since when did Goex have a shelf life??

You're dead wrong on this one. Pure black has no shelf life.

 

[kelleyga]

If you look up the formula for recoil, you will see that one of the factors in recoil is the weight of the propellant. 100gr by volume is only 71 gr by weight when using BH209. 100gr by vol is 100gr by weight if using BP. All the other subs weigh more than BH209 to achieve a 100gr vol equivalent. You are correct that the laws of physics apply. You are incorrect to say that the recoil will be the same.

Also, I would challenge you to get the velocities achieved by BH209 using a vol equivalent of GOEX FF/FFF. In my rifle, I don't think I can match 100vol/71wt BH209 with even 120gr vol/wt of BP. I have never shot Swiss, so that might be different.

I stand by my original statement. BTW, I agree that BP is much easier to light. I used it for years in my sidelock and far preferred it to any other propellant in that application. It is just that - if you have the right equipment and use the right primers - BH209 is easy *enough* to light.

 

[john keyes]

Swamp, at first I thought you had misspelled "apology" and were changing your ways :twisted:

 

[Swampman]

If you're talking about BH209, I really don't care because it works 100% of the time for me. Plus, it's non-hygroscopic so the other powders would lose their shelf life long before BH209 would. Unlike 777, Pyrodex, AP, Goex, BM.....

I've shot Goex that was 30+ years old. I've used Pyrodex that was 20+ years old. They both worked just fine.

All the powder burns unless you are using too much. Recoil will be the same.

 

[Panhandle]

hjbuys
I feel as you do about the cost of shooting...That's why I've decided to shoot Remington .458 300gn HP and Hornady XTP's 250-300gn. Both of these can be obtained in bulk. $25-$28 per 100/ $12 per 100 for sabots. These bullets shoot and perform terminally as good as any, plus a guy can afford to shoot with what he hunts with.

Which Remington .458 300gn HP's are you referring to? Do you have a link?

Here you go....These with the Harvester Black Crushed Rib sabot work real well in my Triumph.
Zen

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templ ... ISO-8859-1

 

[hjbuys]

Panhandle:
Thanks for the link. Do you have one for the XTP's? I have shot those before and have been pleased. Of the two you spoke of, which do you prefer? Thanks again.[/quote]

 

[Panhandle]

Panhandle:
Thanks for the link. Do you have one for the XTP's? I have shot those before and have been pleased. Of the two you spoke of, which do you prefer? Thanks again.

[/quote]

Here's the XTP's.....It's hard to pick a favorite. I think the Remington's shoot a little better at 200yds. As for terminal performance they're both excellent performers. I've never shot the XTP mag
Zen

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templ ... ISO-8859-1

 

[hjbuys]

Another question for Panhandle, or anyone else who can answer it:

Any preference for the XTP vs XTP mag? I must admit, I don't know much about them but am intrigued. If I can get good performance and if they withstand a higher velocity without fragmenting (as they are made specifically for pistols and lower velocities), then I would love to pay $.25 per bullet.

 

[fisher2072]

The nice thing about the remington is its made for a 45-70. So it's been shot at near modern muzzleloader velocities.

 

[SWThomas]

Hey Panhandle, can you post a pic of what the Remington bullet looks like?