ignition systems

[Dougs136Schwartz]

If someone is having trouble with some sort of a ignition system I highly recommend contacting Bestill Creations ( Jeff Fisk) Jeff has helped me Immensely with Knight rifles . Jeff takes other people’s ignition systems and can incorporate them into about any rifle . Things are done behind the scenes that no one knows about . Jeff does not ask for any recognition . This may sound harsh but shims and O rings work fine but are more of a temporary fix which is great for the average hunter that does not shoot that much . Jeff CAN make a ignition system that is WATER proof with out O rings . They are a permanent fix That will last hundreds and hundreds of shots with trouble free maintenance . Jeff can take a 209 system that seals on the sides and nose or a system that uses brass modules and rifle primers and incorporate them into about any bolt action rifle . These systems are water proof and have been tested. There are videos on U tube to prove my point. I personally favor the module system because they do not erode bushings or flash holes and the flame channel has very little carbon build up. Much like Ron earlier posted .Some people like the simplicity of 209s . Jeff can also build you a trouble free 209 system.

This takes time and can be costly but they are a permanent fix done by a professional . I have no trouble paying someone to make my rifle user friendly that I can hand down to my kids or sell if I choose to do so ( which I never do ) and not worry about the next guy having trouble .

Like previously posted it is to bad these companies did not research these ignition systems before building rifles .Right now we are testing 3 different ignition systems for Knight rifles . 2 of the three I am positive they will and are working. When I get permission I will post results. Will Knight incorporate the ignition system into one of their rifles ?? I hope so but do not know .

I just want to let others know Jeff Fisk can and does some amazing things with ignition systems. I could not be happier with the work Jeff has done for me. Jeff may be upset with me making this post . I just feel Jeff should get some credit for the hard work and dedication he has done for me and others that no one knows about .

 

[Busta]

No argument from me. It all takes time and money to fix it right. The stuff I was talking about is from 11 years ago, when guys like Jeff, Luke, and Hank were not doing these systems. This was when Blackhorn 209 was first introduced, and lots of leaky 209 primers systems were normal from all the manufacturers. The o-ring took those leaky production rifles breech plugs and made them blowback free, waterproof, and Blackhorn 209 compatible. It allowed guys to shoot this powder in rifles that were not capable with the factory breech plugs in all of the rifles of that model. The o-ring removed all the stack up issues and by being able to be compressed also fixed individual headspace issues. Not the best system maybe, but worked extremely well at the time and still does today.

I was also referring to production rifles. These companies are not going to custom fit breech plugs and headspace each and every rifle, and to every primer of choice. They need a good system that works within the tolerances of all their rifles produced. Those tolerances can be taken out of the equation by a custom rifle builder that can custom fit all the components.

Unfortunately in a production setting, things don't always work out that way. All of the Production Rifles suffer from this, it is not just one brand.

If one has the money and need for perfect fits, and you cannot do the work yourself, then a custom builder is the way to go.

The muzzleloading companies need suppliers that have CNC equipment capable of running production quantities of breech plugs and bolt faces that stay within their tolerance parameters. The rifles also need to be headspaced within certain tolerances, to keep stack up issues with all components in working parameters. Production parts are like snowflakes, no two are exactly alike, even though they look identical to the human eye.

A custom builder can remove ALL the other component stack up issues out of the equation when they are custom fitting / headspacing a breech plug into an individual rifle.

I think everyone here knows how good of a custom rifle builder that Jeff is. I have never heard of anything but outstanding work performed. I know he has a custom Knight breech plug system for fitting into individual rifles. I'm glad to hear that you are working on some custom breech plugs for Knight, it's obvious that there is room for improvement, as there is with all the manufactures. However, it is much easier to achieve perfection on a limited custom fit sample size than it is for a whole production run or production model run. Make sure he patents any new ideas that are not prior art, if he wants to license it, or supply the muzzleloading rifle manufacturers. Unfortunately, you'll never recover any real monetary value with lots of patents. CVA, Knight, T/C, Remington, and Traditions could all benefit from some new ignition / breech plug technology. I wish him well in his endeavors.

 

[GM54-120]

Im pretty happy with Lehigh style bare 209 systems but at some point i would like to try a LRMP system in a Knight. Lukes 223 case head modules could probably work in a heavily modified bolt.

By the same token though....Knight could base their own module on a FPJ instead. Jeff made something like that in the past. The module just replaced the FPJ. All you need is a plug to fit it and a shell plate for priming them.

 

[Dougs136Schwartz]

I am using a module system now in a Knight that works very well . There are always trade offs . So far with my testing the large rifle system seems to be 20 fps faster with instant ignition . This very much surprised me . I think the difference may be with the Large rifle primer system and modules we are using a .035 bushing . With the 209 system the bushing is .025 . Extreme spreads I still need to do more testing with the LabRadar . 209s are simple and can be found just about anywhere but 209s plug flame channels and erode bushings and flash holes . Module systems seal extremely well , will handle more pressure , do not erode bushings or flash holes and have very little fouling in the flame channel . The only disadvantage I see so far is the availability of rifle primers and having to prime and deprime modules . There is talk of Knight possibly coming out with a new long range rifle. The things I am having done can be done to any Knight rifle . I hope one of the these ignition systems we are testing will be used in the new rifle if the new Knight is produced . If this gets done EVERYONE will be happy whether it is a 209 system or a module system . I agree most mass produced rifles like the Mountaineer may not be possible to have a new or different ignition system but a rifle like the Knight 500 or the Paramount should have a quality ignition system that will handle high pressure loads.

 

[ENCORE50A]

Doug, I absolutely love the module system over any and all other systems. The short time I used the modules in the UF and with the GEN2 system, I burned up 5#'s of BH with HEAVY CHARGES, they remain clean. I never found it to be an issue to knock out a spent primer and re-prime the module. Especially when they eliminate all the problems and actually save a lot of work and time. As for LRMP's, never had a problem finding them, especially now.


As for Jeff, there's absolutely no doubt he's a premier builder. As you know, he's building my rifle. Nothing against any other builders, they're all good. I'm getting parts and pieces from both Luke and Levi

 

[sbuff]

Call me old school, I love the O ring Busta came up with for the NEF line of muzzloaders.

I've heard great things about Jeff and his builds

 

[sabotloader]

I have tried the module system in two different rifles and they are not for me. I much prefer the bare 209 ignition system. You are correct in the case of Knight they will and do tend to plug the flash channel and the do and can wear the vent liner.

In my case the plugging of the flash channel/Vent Liner is some what alleviated by using a cooler 209 primer. At the range I have shot up to 25 shots of BH and T7 without a flash channel problem. Wear on the Vent Liners - again related directly to the quality of the vent liner. the powder and the volume of the load you are shooting.

Cleaning the flash channel even at the range is a simple matter if it needs to be done.

For myself the priming and de-priming of the case is an extra step that really shows me any real benefit as a hunter. I also found that eventually even the cases needed to be cleaned internally or tossed and new cases purchased.

Again just my thoughts...

 

[ENCORE50A]

I have tried the module system in two different rifles and they are not for me...…..
For myself the priming and de-priming of the case is an extra step that really shows me any real benefit as a hunter. I also found that eventually even the cases needed to be cleaned internally or tossed and new cases purchased.

Again just my thoughts...

Cases? Do you mean the modules? I sent 5#'s of BH through just 40 modules and they don't need cleaning. Just wondering.....

 

[sabotloader]

Correct I do mean cartridge cases... modified to fit into the breech plug. And a LRMP system from the guy in Canada (Precision) I think that is where I got it.

 

[Dougs136Schwartz]

Ya Cecil is not on the same level as the ignition systems and modules as of today

Sabotloader I can not argue the simplicity of a 209 . Us that prefer to shoot Blackhorn over 777 need the hotter 209s . Then we run into plugging flash channels and as Ron stated sand blasting bushings and flash holes . There always seem to be some sort of trade off .

Before I always thought I preferred 209s . Right now I have access to both systems ( modules vs 209s ) I now am leaning towards modules . Both systems work very well . Things could work out a person could possibly get either system .

 

[45-70]

kind of reason they went with cartridge cases eventually.