New to bp

[Epperson]

Hey guys! I am having some issues with my muzzleloader. To start, I was gifted a .58 caliber H&R huntsman. It is a nice gun in good shape. Ny first issue may have been cleared up but I'm not sure yet, so let me catch you up. I load 100 grains of pyrodex powder, and use a buffalo ball-et, with a size 10 percussion cap. (I tried 11s but there was a delay in the firing of the weapon) I kept getting misfires where the cap would go off but the load wouldn't fire. I took the rifle in to a local shop and they said my nipple was dirty., so they removed it and cleaned it for me, they said the gun was filthy. I took it home and cleaned it real good.I went out to shoot the next day. I made a load like explained and fired 5 caps off with no go on the load. Took the rifle back in and they said I must have some moisture in my barrel from excessive cleaning and not drying. I got a ball puller, and got the ball-et out, tried to dump powder and nothing came out, after some scraping some muddy looking sludge came out, followed by powder and more sludge. I cleaned it really we'll again but I'm afraid to go try to shoot at this point. Am I using to much cleaning solution and not enough dry patches to collect all the oils? Will having a clean nipple clear up the misfires? And last question...if I am accurate at 50 yards, how much drop should I expect at 100 yards?

 

[cayuga]

Hey guys! I am having some issues with my muzzleloader. To start, I was gifted a .58 caliber H&R huntsman. It is a nice gun in good shape. Ny first issue may have been cleared up but I'm not sure yet, so let me catch you up. I load 100 grains of pyrodex powder, and use a buffalo ball-et, with a size 10 percussion cap. (I tried 11s but there was a delay in the firing of the weapon) I kept getting misfires where the cap would go off but the load wouldn't fire. I took the rifle in to a local shop and they said my nipple was dirty., so they removed it and cleaned it for me, they said the gun was filthy. I took it home and cleaned it real good.I went out to shoot the next day. I made a load like explained and fired 5 caps off with no go on the load. Took the rifle back in and they said I must have some moisture in my barrel from excessive cleaning and not drying. I got a ball puller, and got the ball-et out, tried to dump powder and nothing came out, after some scraping some muddy looking sludge came out, followed by powder and more sludge. I cleaned it really we'll again but I'm afraid to go try to shoot at this point. Am I using to much cleaning solution and not enough dry patches to collect all the oils? Will having a clean nipple clear up the misfires? And last question...if I am accurate at 50 yards, how much drop should I expect at 100 yards?

Welcome to the forum and the sport.

I am not familiar with the H&R rifle. Does the barrel come off. If it does, take the barrel off for cleaning. Remove the nipple and throw that in a small glass with water and some dish soap. Now take the barrel outside and pour a generous amount of warm dish soap water down the barrel. let the water drain out through the nipple hole. With patches and a cleaning jag on your ramrod, start working saturated patches up and down through the barrel. Use short strokes, cleaning slowly. If you feel it getting too tight, pull the patch out and start over.

Keep running patches (be sure to check your jag to make sure it is not coming unscrewed) until you get nice clean patches. Now pour VERY HOT, NEAR BOILING IF YOU LIKE water down the bore and let it drain out the breech nipple port. This will heat the barrel up. And anyone that ever did dishes knows if you rinse a plate with hot water it about dries itself. Now start running clean dry patches down that barrel until you get a DRY patch out of the barrel. I like to shoot an air compressor down the nipple hole and that too will blow water out of anywhere it it trying to hide.

With the barrel still hot, run a patch with gun oil down the bore and slowly work that in the barrel, oiling all the parts of the barrel. The rifle is now clean and protected.

Before you put the nipple back wipe it out, and then blow through it. If you can feel the air passing through it, wipe it good and replace it in the rifle.

Before you shoot next time.... take a dry patch and apply some alcohol to it. Now swab the bore. That will remove the oil in the barrel. Now with dry patches, swab the bore. Again.. get a dry patch out of it. Now push one of them dry patches all the way down the bore on your cleaning jag. Apply a cap to the nipple of the empty rifle and fire it. Pull the patch and see if it has burn marks. If it does not.. push a dry patch down there and repeat the cap firing until you can see a burn mark on that patch. That means the fire channel is clean and clear and fire will pass through. Now your ready to load and fire the rifle.

Remember when you swab the bore when shooting. Damp is good on the patch, saturated is bad. Just a damp patch and then a dry one.

Also if that is a #11 nipple I am surprised you can even get a #10 cap to fit it. If it is a #11 nipple that should fit a #11 cap which has even more fire then the #10. Use a quality percussion cap. Like a CCI Magnum or Remington. If your shooting #11 CCI standard caps that might be your problem.

Also don't be shooting pellets. Only loose powder. Use something like Pyrodex RS or Black Powder. No Blackhorn 209.

 

[Epperson]

Thanks for the info!
1. My barrel doesn't remove from what I can tell, I can post pictures if needed.
2. I am using no.10 and 11 cci caps, I will look for the other brands but I'm in a small town with limited supplies.
3. My powder right now is pyrodex rs, I am ordering real black powder because I want the smoke effect.
4. My other question about dropoff when shooting 100 yards. I use 100 powder and a bullet that's 380 grain. It seems large so I'm worried about a rainbow effect, I'm asking about it because I was off by three feet and I'm sure that's not the dropoff. I'm about three inches low of center at fifty yards. Maybe I'm wrong but I thought I should lose 5 or six inches not multiple feet.

 

[cayuga]

Thanks for the info!
1. My barrel doesn't remove from what I can tell, I can post pictures if needed.
2. I am using no.10 and 11 cci caps, I will look for the other brands but I'm in a small town with limited supplies.
3. My powder right now is pyrodex rs, I am ordering real black powder because I want the smoke effect.
4. My other question about dropoff when shooting 100 yards. I use 100 powder and a bullet that's 380 grain. It seems large so I'm worried about a rainbow effect, I'm asking about it because I was off by three feet and I'm sure that's not the dropoff. I'm about three inches low of center at fifty yards. Maybe I'm wrong but I thought I should lose 5 or six inches not multiple feet.

1. I am guessing your muzzleloader is like the old H&R shotguns I used to own. But post a picture, I would love to see it.
2. Small town.. last count there were 14 people in the town near where I live. I live in the woods. So I know all about having no good stores around you. You just do the best you can.

3. And Pyrodex is a great powder.

4. Any large conical will have a rainbow trajectory. I shoot 460 and 500 grain conicals. So I have to deal with that. Try sighting the rifle in at 2 inches above the bulls eye at 50 yards and then try at 100 yards. That might put you closer to the ball park. Still a little low, but in the park. And there is no need to beat you up with large powder charges. 80 grains is plenty of power and might even give you better accuracy.

 

[Epperson]

Ps...I shoot open sights, no scopes in wa state.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eppicmedia/10543488706/lightbox/ the first two images. Sorry I am using an ipad and can't get the photos to work.

 

[Epperson]

OK, i didn't know what powder charge to use as the gun didn't have a manual with it so i started at 100 thinking that sounded nice and round, I have shoot it with 120 which is a real kick in the shoulder. I will lower my charge and see how that does on my accuracy. Thanks for all the information, and if others are reading this all information is welcome! Thanks for reading and replying.

 

[cayuga]

I am guessing your shooting an all lead conical. I think I read that Washington State had a regulation about that. Wisconsin used to be only open sights and to tell you the truth, it never bothered me. Have you ever tried a patched roundball? For deer they might work real good. But again, it depends on the twist of the rifle. Although, I have a Lyman with a 1-32 twist and it shoots roundball very well.

Good luck with your rifle. What brand of conical are you shooting?

 

[Epperson]

I'm shooting something called a buffalo ball-et. It's pre lubed and heavy, by buffalo bullet co.i like it all things considered.

 

[cayuga]

The ball-ets are a glorified roundball basically. Some rifles shoot them well, some not at all. I shoot ball-ets but use only 70 grains of powder. As I found if they were pushed to hard, there was no telling where they were going to hit in relation to the original group. They do kill deer. I can attest to that.

I have a Knight 50 caliber LK rifle and with 70 grains of powder and a 270 grain ball-et, it is deadly. A friend has the same rifle. And his kid hunts deer with the same thing. And he takes a deer every year with the ball-et. So you might be on to something there.

Good luck with the bullet.

 

[GM54-120]

Just a word of caution.

I looked at that picture and i see what appear to be a set screw at the breach plug area. IIRC H&R made a breach plug at one time that was not threaded. It was near press fit and the steel frame is what contained the backward movement of the breach plug. That screw might be to hold that plug a little better. Im not sure but i would verify it has a threaded breach plug for safety reasons.

H&R quit making them that way for a reason. It can be VERY dangerous if a fail to fire occurs and you open the action. The breach plug can become a projectile if it is not threaded. The old plugs could be knocked out with just a long enough ramrod. Busta should know. He is well versed in the H&Rs.

I would loosen or remove that screw (if needed) and make sure which breach plug is in that H&R

Even the NMLRA is aware of the danger of the H&R models with the sliding breech plug and have prohibited them.

National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association’s Rules and Regulations

2470 – BREAK-OPEN POLICY – Sealed-ignition break-open muzzleloading firearms will be allowed on all ranges in specified matches during the
NMLRA National Shoots.
a. Approved firearms will have a semi-permanent, mechanically fit breeching system.
b. Said breeching system shall be either threaded or welded in place.
c. Firearms with a press-fit breech plug secured by an O ring, such as the Harrington and Richardson Huntsman model, are prohibited.

 

[Epperson]

Gm54-120 thank you for the heads up. I removed both screws ( there is a twin screw on the other side.) I tried to remove it using a ramrod, then a pair of vice grips, that brech isn't going anywhere. It looks as though it's part of the barrel, I will try to take a picture of it when I figure out how to get photos to post. I was wondering why I couldn't find a breech plug wrench for it. When I was in the shop they said something about it not having a breech plug, just a part of the barrel that accepts the nipple. I will keep working on it.

 

[GM54-120]

IIRC the threaded plug used a "spanner wrench" type tool. The press fit plugs do not. Only a o-ring keeps it in place and seals it. If your plug looks like there is no place for tool to grab, then i can only assume it is the press fit o-ring model. It might be rusted in place but there is no way i can be sure. I also read about the nipple length concerns. If it is too long, it can fire on closing the action. Make sure you get or have the correct nipple also.

Please be careful and PM and/or email Busta. memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=4801

Busta should know the answers far better than me.

 

[ShawnT]

Heard about the push in BP but never saw one. I found this picture on line of a push in.


If yours looks something like this then I would bet GM54-120 is correct and yours is rusted in place and the screws were someones attempt to stop it from backing out. I would bet it is removable. I never heard of a Fixed Plug in those. Busta would definitely know for sure. He is the H&R Guru.

 

[Epperson]

Figured out the pictures, i will send a message to this Busta fellow and see what he thinks. Thanks all.

 

[ShawnT]

I would too. But I'll bet that is a version of the Push in Breech Plug.

 

[Epperson]

A phone call later and now I'm disappointed. According to h&r my rifle is a slide in breech. They say it's safe to operate but now I'm nervous, should I trade it for something safer or should I just use extreme caution now that I know? They also said the set screws were not done by the manufacturer but by an individual attempting to make the gun safer in the individuals eyes.thanks...

 

[Dwayne]

A phone call later and now I'm disappointed. According to h&r my rifle is a slide in breech. They say it's safe to operate but now I'm nervous, should I trade it for something safer or should I just use extreme caution now that I know? They also said the set screws were not done by the manufacturer but by an individual attempting to make the gun safer in the individuals eyes.thanks...

That alone, should answer your question. . .If you don't feel safe shooting a gun, why in the world would you want to shoot it? Not only that, with the "idea" that the gun is unsafe in your head, your accuracy is probably going to suffer too.

 

[Epperson]

Dwayne, thanks for that lol. I went against our better judgement and the results were mixed.
1. I changed my load to 80 and it seems to like that load.
2. I used the number 11 caps and they we're loose but fired off every time , I only had one misfire after six shots.
3. After cleaning the gun really we'll it seems to fire regularly, so I can put my trust in it.
4.my aim...I tried pumpkin on a post but everything was really low, I will adjust and see where I go from here, I will also update if I get my deer in three weeks.
Thanks for all the advice and tips.

 

[Busta]

Epperson,

That rifle and breech plug has been modified to be in with the Washington regs. The nipple/cap has to be open to the elements, thus the cut-out. The screws are there to keep the push-in breech plug from turning/moving. If it were a screw-in breech plug, it would have a couple holes, one on each side of the nipple for a spanner wrench.

Just be extremely careful if you have a FTF (fail to fire). Keep the rifle pointed down range, and do not open the breech for several minutes. Since yours is a .58 caliber, take a 1/2" dowel long enough to reach the breech plug from the muzzle end and stick out far enough to tap the end with a mallet/hammer. Remove the barrel from the frame by first removing the forend with the breech locked shut. Once the forend is removed, the barrel will separate from the frame/receiver by simply pressing down on the breeching lever, then rotating the barrel forward and up off the hinge pin. make sure you remove the two screws, on each side of the barrel before attempting to remove the breech plug. If you give the breech plug a good rap with the dowel, the breech plug should pop out for cleaning. There is a possibility that it could also be rusted in place, at least temporarily. You might need to use some penetrating type oils on it first, or submerse that end in a pot of boiling water for several minutes, to break the bond. There will be o-rings for seals that may or may not need to be replaced.

It has been reported that a T/C employee was killed by one of these type breech plugs several years ago. I guess it could happen, but the rifle was designed to not open up far enough to remove the breech plug without removing the barrel from the frame/receiver. Some of these rifles were modified so that the breech plug could be removed while the barrel is still attached to the receiver, and that can lead to the unsafe condition mentioned above. There are several people that still shoot these older H&R Huntsmans, both with the push-in, and screw-in breech plugs. Just get it good and clean, then it will fire much more reliably, if you intend to use it. I wouldn't classify it as a "death trap", but just be aware of the possibility of a hang-fire/delayed fire If/when you have a FTF. Keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction for several minutes before attempting to open the breech.

Yours does look to be modified so it will tip open further, as compared to the pic Shawn T posted, so be aware of that.

 

[ShawnT]

Epperson,

I would follow Busta's advice to a tee. I too would clean it out. The rifle looks like it is in Good shape on the outside and I would really want to see what it looks like inside at the Breech. Plus getting it all cleaned up may just give you more confidence in what your have. Like Busta stated it would definitely help resolve your ignition issues. A clean breach is a happy breach. :wink: I would not be afraid to shoot it either, just keep the loads in a safe range. It looks like it would make a dandy brush & heavy timber rifle. That one is real interesting with that hump in the barrel, I had not seen one like that.

Busta,

Any Idea what they were doing to them to make them open up more? Seems it would be more than just modifying the plastic peice at the back of the forend. Don't they have some pins on the underlug that that fit into a groove on the frame that rotate around when opening and closing?