Springfield Trapdoor

[Blackrock]

I have an opportunity to obtain a Springfield -1884 Model - trapdoor. The cleaning/ram rod is absent. It was made in 1st qtr of 1890 based on Serial #. Caliber 45-70. In addition to the upgraded rear sight there is also an 'original' peep site added by the Army. Trigger is serrated.
It is in decent shape and shoots well enough to put it on paper at 100 yards.
Any advice or issues to be on lookout for?

 

[Whokalouie]

Be careful of the ammo you use! I shoot Remington ammo loaded for the OLD 45-70's in my original trapdoor, nothing else.

 

[X-ring]

I have an opportunity to obtain a Springfield -1884 Model - trapdoor. The cleaning/ram rod is absent. It was made in 1st qtr of 1890 based on Serial #. Caliber 45-70. In addition to the upgraded rear sight there is also an 'original' peep site added by the Army. Trigger is serrated.
It is in decent shape and shoots well enough to put it on paper at 100 yards.
Any advice or issues to be on lookout for?

Trapdoor bores have been known to vary widely. I would slug the bore to find out exactly what size it is. Hand loading is your best option. The trapdoor action is the weakest of all the old B.P. actions but that does not mean they are unsafe to shoot. You just have to use ammo that duplicates the old B.P. pressures. I have older Lyman loading manuals that list loads using smokeless powder that are safe to use in trapdoors, high walls, rolling blocks etc. I have fired MANY light smokeless loads in my original high walls. A light smokeless load would not have the fouling/cleaning issues that you get using B.P. Hope this helps. X

 

[Blackrock]

Very much so. I have learned that the current owner has shot it but number of times is unknown ("just a couple"). He used smokeless loaded cartridges with 405 gr bullet that came to him with the gun. He was told that they are "low pressure" loads.
I had planned to cast the barrel chamber with Chamber Cast Alloy from Roto but would be unable until after acquisition...

 

[X-ring]

Very much so. I have learned that the current owner has shot it but number of times is unknown ("just a couple"). He used smokeless loaded cartridges with 405 gr bullet that came to him with the gun. He was told that they are "low pressure" loads.
I had planned to cast the barrel chamber with Chamber Cast Alloy from Roto but would be unable until after acquisition...

Just a tip...........NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, shoot somebody else's handloads "that came with the gun"!!!! X

 

[Blackrock]

Just a tip...........NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, shoot somebody else's handloads "that came with the gun"!!!! X

Agree. I plan to deconstruct the cartridges, keep the bullets if they weigh out and look good, dump whatever powder (seller says they are commercial not 'homemade'), fire off the primers, and then clean & prep the brass, and handload myself. Likely something similar to my Sharps loads...

 

[Steve Swanson]

Shoot what it was designed to shoot. Use a compressed charge of 70gn 2f. Open up primer pocket with a 3/32 drill bit. Use either a 405g or 500gn .460 slug @ 20:1 and a large magnum rifle primer. Smokeless loads will lead up amd erode your bore.

 

[lukedrywalker]

Did you get the gun?

 

[Blackrock]

Did you get the gun?

Yes, I traded for it. I belong to "Load Data" and found an Accurate load designed for trapdoors. Supposedly the FPS is less than 1400 so leading is not supposed to be an issue. However, I prefer to use BP. According to Wolf's Trapdoor book I should use a 405 gr hollow base 20:1 or up to 40:1 over 55 gr of 2f Swiss as it is a carbine not a rifle. Or as originally stated 45-55-405. Wolf sized his to .459 but his book says .457-.458...And he states it is critical to enlarge flash hole to 0.096" for adequate ignition/burn and to use large rifle magnum primer...preferably Winchester
Still trying to find info on post shoot cleaning...barrel is not the issue. Unknown to me is how much disassembly is needed to properly clean the breech/lock?

Any thoughts

 

[X-ring]

Yes, I traded for it. I belong to "Load Data" and found an Accurate load designed for trapdoors. Supposedly the FPS is less than 1400 so leading is not supposed to be an issue. However, I prefer to use BP. According to Wolf's Trapdoor book I should use a 405 gr hollow base 20:1 or up to 40:1 over 55 gr of 2f Swiss as it is a carbine not a rifle. Or as originally stated 45-55-405. Wolf sized his to .459 but his book says .457-.458...And he states it is critical to enlarge flash hole to 0.096" for adequate ignition/burn and to use large rifle magnum primer...preferably Winchester
Still trying to find info on post shoot cleaning...barrel is not the issue. Unknown to me is how much disassembly is needed to properly clean the breech/lock?

Any thoughts

Slug the bore. As I mentioned before, trapdoor bores can vary quite a lot. For the life of me I can't imagine why they say it is "critical" to enlarge the flash hole for adequate ignition/burn. Why??? And why magnum primers?? After untold thousands of B.P. ctg. rounds fired over the last 35 years [32-20, 32-40, 38-55, 40-70, 45-70, 45-90, 45-100, 45-120,] I've never had any ignition trouble by not enlarging the flash hole or not using magnum primers. Why is ignition/burn in a trapdoor different than ignition/burn in a high wall, ballard, rolling block, hepburn, etc??
Unless you are getting blowback from around the fired case, I wouldn't bother cleaning the breechblock........maybe once a year.........maybe never. I would still suggest starting with mild smokeless loads SUITABLE FOR TRAPDOORS. Consult your reloading manuals. If you can't keep all your shots on paper at 100 yds. using smokeless, I wouldn't even bother using black powder. X

 

[X-ring]

Shoot what it was designed to shoot. Use a compressed charge of 70gn 2f. Open up primer pocket with a 3/32 drill bit. Use either a 405g or 500gn .460 slug @ 20:1 and a large magnum rifle primer. Smokeless loads will lead up amd erode your bore.

Could you please site you sources when you say that smokeless loads will lead and erode the bore?
Harry Pope and thousands of schuetzen shooters would disagree with that statement. X

 

[Blackrock]

Slug the bore. As I mentioned before, trapdoor bores can vary quite a lot. For the life of me I can't imagine why they say it is "critical" to enlarge the flash hole for adequate ignition/burn. Why??? And why magnum primers?? After untold thousands of B.P. ctg. rounds fired over the last 35 years [32-20, 32-40, 38-55, 40-70, 45-70, 45-90, 45-100, 45-120,] I've never had any ignition trouble by not enlarging the flash hole or not using magnum primers. Why is ignition/burn in a trapdoor different than ignition/burn in a high wall, ballard, rolling block, hepburn, etc??
Unless you are getting blowback from around the fired case, I wouldn't bother cleaning the breechblock........maybe once a year.........maybe never. I would still suggest starting with mild smokeless loads SUITABLE FOR TRAPDOORS. Consult your reloading manuals. If you can't keep all your shots on paper at 100 yds. using smokeless, I wouldn't even bother using black powder. X

J Wolf claims drilling the flash hole size not necessary for use but is critical for 2 reasons: 1) to get complete steady burn of compressed BP which will reduce fouling, and 2) to obtain the long distance accuracy firearm capable of..repeats it several times in his book.
Thank you for the advice re: breech lock. I did find a Load Data load specifically for trapdoors...plan to start with that.

 

[Steve Swanson]

Could you please site you sources when you say that smokeless loads will lead and erode the bore?
Harry Pope and thousands of schuetzen shooters would disagree with that statement. X

A shutzen a trapdoor rifle is certianly not..... A trapdoor was a weapon of war, and a had to function and shoot accurately dirty and fouled. By design, a trapdoor bore is .460-.463 and shot a 20:1 .457 projectile that was supposed to obturate into the deeper rifling. The bullets and case were made specifically to allow this to happen.

Smokeless powder combined with an off the shelf 45-70 bullet will shoot OK, mostly poorly especially if the improper alloy is used Smokeless does not give the "push" black does and will not properly swell the bullet into the bore. Gas cutting will leave a steady deposit of lead in your bore and erode it at the same time.

My source is my experience shooting, cleaning and owning a dozen original trapdoor as well as Spencer wolf's treatise on the matter. All of my trapdoor bore were severely leaded and needed extensive cleaning to get decades of Smokeless shooting debris out of the grooves.

Yes you may find information on government Smokeless loads used in the rifles in the late 1890s, however that period was extremely short-lived and by that time the trapdoor was beyond obsolete.

 

[Steve Swanson]

J Wolf claims drilling the flash hole size not necessary for use but is critical for 2 reasons: 1) to get complete steady burn of compressed BP which will reduce fouling, and 2) to obtain the long distance accuracy firearm capable of..repeats it several times in his book.
Thank you for the advice re: breech lock. I did find a Load Data load specifically for trapdoors...plan to start with that.

I don't think your entirely correct about that. I received miserable results in my original rifles until I opened up the flash hole and used a magnum rifle primer. That compressed black will burn like a cigarette and not produce enough pressure to obturate the .458 projectile into the larger .460+ bore. A magnum primer will blast that solid black powder cylinder apart and give you the instant ignition you need.

 

[Steve Swanson]

Slug the bore. As I mentioned before, trapdoor bores can vary quite a lot. For the life of me I can't imagine why they say it is "critical" to enlarge the flash hole for adequate ignition/burn. Why??? And why magnum primers?? After untold thousands of B.P. ctg. rounds fired over the last 35 years [32-20, 32-40, 38-55, 40-70, 45-70, 45-90, 45-100, 45-120,] I've never had any ignition trouble by not enlarging the flash hole or not using magnum primers. Why is ignition/burn in a trapdoor different than ignition/burn in a high wall, ballard, rolling block, hepburn, etc??
Unless you are getting blowback from around the fired case, I wouldn't bother cleaning the breechblock........maybe once a year.........maybe never. I would still suggest starting with mild smokeless loads SUITABLE FOR TRAPDOORS. Consult your reloading manuals. If you can't keep all your shots on paper at 100 yds. using smokeless, I wouldn't even bother using black powder. X

It's all about how compressed the black powder needs to be for original military loading for a trapdoor rifle. You have nearly .50 of compression that formed a rock hard pellet of black powder.

You can circumnavigate this by using a custom mold to give you a groove diameter bullet but run into the problem of being able to chamber the round.

 

[Blackrock]

I don't think your entirely correct about that. I received miserable results in my original rifles until I opened up the flash hole and used a magnum rifle primer. That compressed black will burn like a cigarette and not produce enough pressure to obturate the .458 projectile into the larger .460+ bore. A magnum primer will blast that solid black powder cylinder apart and give you the instant ignition you need.

By use I think he means short distance hunting. Although I may have misunderstood/misquoted his statements. He repeats several times that in order to get distance accuracy these "Old Warriors" were meant to achieve, the flash hole needs to be enlarged and one must use a magnum primer. And not just any Magnum Primer but specifically Winchester Large Magnum Rifle Primer and NOT Winchester Magnum Large Rifle Primers for Magnum or Standard